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I went to a youth weekend camp to day and what i found suprised me,i think it is the reason why christ has not come to colect his people because he can not identify them,i mean look at christians today they do not defer from worldly people.They dress the same clothes they talk the same things they dance and sing they same,and most christian website have almost the same things as the worldly websites it's just that the are put in a bibilical way.Do you think christ can come with this kind of things hapening

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Yes, I can accept the general point you're making here N Him, as the Proverb says,

"The first to plead his case seems right, until another comes and examines him." (Prov 18:17 NASB).

Examination may be necessary (and profitable), even when authoritative material has first been presented.

Again, there are times when, in the "multitude of counselors" there is real safety. (Seeing that the truth has many facets). But there are certainly times when counsel [or 'cross-examination'] will bring only strife and confusion.

Ultimately truth is held [or wielded] in righteousness or unrighteousness. Those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Rom 1:18) will say that they present only the "truth" (and that may be true), but the spirit we carry will almost always speak with the louder voice.

Yes I agree, it is right that both sides should be considered, but let's not use that to justify contention. "The servant of the Lord must not strive" (2Tim 2:24).
Well ... I don't know how you define 'contention' ... but would you consider our resent discussion where I added a quote for you to consider ... to be 'contention'?
No, the quote you posted about God's purposes knowing no haste and no delay, I didn't consider that contentious, N Him, not at all. I smiled and appreciated it, thank you.

Contention, to me is a fight, a struggle, a contest, in which there is no real hope of resolution.
I suppose it would be fine to have that if the two are friendly and Christian in their disagreements and agree to disagree? For I see it often in our churches where one places emphasis on Grace and the other on Works. But they both are really in agreement except upon which the emphasis should be placed. And they can agree to disagree. Now that is the ideal. And it is much more fun that when one party gets their feathers ruffled. :)

Unfortunately ... some are just not able to tolerate having their pet ideas and theories challenged. So when one presents both sides ... they find it an attack on their person when it was attacking the issue. Quite a difference. It's called 'personalization' and it is a common disease on forums. But as long as one sticks to the issues .... communication can be effective and Christian.
This is so similar to many Adventist writers and speakers and books/articles I come across...

The solution is to change our external behaviours.

If only we wear the right clothes and talk correctly and listen to the right music and stop wearing jewelry and eating the wrong things, Christ will come.

Our Jewish friends have a tradition that if just one Sabbath is kept perfectly by all Jews (according to all their rules and regulations), then the Messiah will come immediately.

In what way are we any different or any less legalistic?

Have we forgotten that "man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart"?

Yes, the issue always revolves around us and what we are doing, doesn't it. When the real solution is Jesus and what He does in us. We end up trying to do it ourselves but we can't change ourselves a bit.

It is just a matter of focus, if we let our focus turn to this world and overcoming it then we are no better than the legalist who works continually to become righteous. But if we focus our attention wholly on Jesus then the only thing that matters will be Jesus and Him crucified and our hearts will melt and we will become pliable so that He can work us as the Potter to the clay. As such we can become what He wants us to be.

We hasten, or delay, His coming by whether or not we allow Him to do His great work within us. God's timing will be fulfilled as He has designed because He knows perfectly well how to work in us. We can hasten His coming and it will be right on time. How can we understand this? Keep your focus and it will all make sense.

By the way, as a witness to myself, I fail continually and am no where near where I need to be but that is not to be my focus is it? Neither should I focus on what anyone else is doing and their failures. The only thing that matters is Jesus.

Let's hear your thoughts.

And yet isn't the language of Scripture very frequently "behavior based"?

Titus 2:1-10
"But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.
Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.

Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect."
Yes Stewart ... there is plenty on both sides to emphasize on if they so choose. It depends upon how they view the Great Good News of Salvation and their image of God. I think both images are fine. But when taken to either extreme ... it is the tool of the Devil.

Good Works are here to glorify Jesus. They are not for the purpose of salvation. No matter how many good works Jesus does in you ... they are filthy rags towards your salvation. Which is based totally on the works of Jesus 2,000 years ago.
It's hard to know what to do, because He has told us not to be a stumbling block, and to get along, as far as possible..God really doesnt care how we look..Of course He wants us to be wearing His robe of righteousness, but that simply means, His blood..His gift of Life IN Him..

I have known many people who would really surprise you..But they are not the ones of which you speak..It is a shame that the kids dont know from the adults what the TRUE beauty of Christ really looks like..It is why they seek to be fulfilled by the world..They are practically chased to the world, by all the judgment, coming from, quite largely, sadly enough,thier very own church families..Well-meaning? people who try to make them understand by rules upon rules..While thier own religion is cold, due to fear, (given by the Spirit to enact change, but misinterpreted by people who cling to undisclosed things..) and out of this coldness of fear, they seek to MAKE the kids LIKE them, of all things!!..JUST what they percieve, (correctly), is wrong..And so, if this is church, what is left to try but the world?..

I dont mean to say that is how it is everywhere, but that is one of the ways the enemy works..On a large scale..I live in an area with a boarding academy..I see this, that I am talking about..

Kids, who are being judged on thier clothes, while thier souls go thirsting..

It is an area that is almost untouchable, or taboo to speak of..It goes directly to correction on a scale we are mostly not equiped to do, in honesty, and humility, and love, most of all..To either help with the correction, or to BE corrected..

I find the pharsaical sins, the very ones Jesus sought to change, are largely ignored..Out of the religious form of "political correctness"..I see that we seek very hard to make sure we dont allow in any tares..Any lower sins..Willfull sins, I do understand that, but I think Jesus pretty much left that work up to the Spirit..The convicting, and our working out our own salvation, with fear and trembling..It is not for us to know for sure if any individual is going to be sincere and stay the course after baptism..

But I digress..My point was that we are very hard on the sins we SEE, but it would seem to be too difficult to attack head on, the sins of pride, or the actions that do lead to a childs having a blighted view of Jesus, which leads them to the world, instead of Jesus..

Everyone has thier own mask, or veil..Only those who are doing the nasty work of removing thier own inner veil, the fleshy veil that seperates us from Jesus, the veil of cheished sins, and unholy desires and thoughts,only after we have begun to do this, can we begin to see with the right vision..After we give it all up on the alter, for real, with all the pain.. And this is a long process..Can we tell someone else, no you havent gotten far enough along to really belong to this Body of Jesus..Even though you desire this Lifeline, we have deemed you not good enough..

Because I am a baptized SDA, and I still struggle..I still am SO GRATEFUL for Grace, because without it He WOULD see me..Down here trying to be good enough by my dress or actions, or by ANYTHING!!..

It DOESNT matter what I look like or what I wear..It matters that what I do, I do FOR HIM..If He has not lead someone to change their dress, He will get around to it, or not..Not for me to know or care..What is mine to know and care about is that they see Him IN me so they have something tangible to go by..Because obviously, from what you describe, they need a visual..

We ARE the visual aid He uses...I know He wants a church that reflects Him..But the church that reflects Him, will not be crediting ANYTHING to ANYONE based on what they are wearing..And even though some are not as far along, we love them as if they were..That is what HE is doing right this very minute with me, and I couldnt be more grateful!!

I dont think He is waiting for them to change the way they look, but the way they feel, about Him, and His love..

Being in an academy church, I see this stuff on a big scale,and so may seem jaded..Perhaps even wrong..I know it wouldnt be the first time..And I may vey well be here tommorow apologizing cause of some new Light shed on my little pathway..But for now, I am slightly irritated with people who shun our kids..They have so much to deal with..We should only ever help..

And I dont think THEY are the reason He hasnt come yet, but maybe for thier role models?
Being different and standing out ... is not always good. The Jews stood out with their strict works oriented religion. But it is what is in our heart that needs to stand out. And that is not always apparent. And there have been people who either stood out or didn't stand out all through the ages. Christ will come when He thinks that men and angels have seen enough of what sin does. Perhaps He is waiting for more evil to display itself. I dunno. But I do know that He will do it in HIS time and not ours.
Thank you, Kat, I think you are on the right lines here.

The last sign of Christ's soon return will be that the Gospel will be preached to everyone in the world. this is so that no-one can say that they didn't know what the Great Controversy is all about and everyone can and will take their stand on one side or the other.

If our all-consuming passion is to fulfill these words of Christ everything else will fall into place. Our characters *will* be transformed and we won't worry about who wears what etc., only that each one of us should be saved. Personally, I believe that if we are single-minded for the work that the Lord has set before us all other aspects of our life in Christ cannot help but to fall in place. Time spent on the "mission field" of this earth is a very sobering experience.


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