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Should women preach, become elders, pastors, leaders?

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Deborah

A good post. 

First, God forgives and can use even us vile sinners.  For that we can thank God.

But the part of your post I wanted to highlight is the role of men.  The blame for women seeking ordinaiton lies straight on the back of men who have not been faithful to the role God has assigned to them. 

Men have not been the spiritual leaders in the home, for various reasons.

Men have not taken the leadership role, for various reasons.

Men have not been the loving husbands and fathers, for various reason.

Men have failed in many ways, for various reasons.

However, in just what way does the failure of men demand that women also follow their example and also fail? 

When women go contrary to God's revealed will, they become no better then those who they condemn and want to replace.  With that approach, how can they claim to do any better?  There is no excuse for men to do what they have been doing.  Nor is there any excuse for women to follow that bad example. 

Paul says it this way.

    "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ."  1 Cor. 11:1 (ESV) 

We are not to imitate anyone who is not following Jesus.  That only drags the church of God down even further.

 

Maranatha :)
Ray


 

The pioneers were ALL IN, as the saying goes.. They FORSOOK thier own fleshly desires, and many I am sure, abandoned the ideas of marriage and family, KNOWING they were soon to go to the Kingdom.

Today, we are groomed by society, to engage those fleshly desires as soon as possible. It IS harder to not burn, as a single person..

 

And IF we burn, from our fleshly desires, we MUST satiate them as is Biblical.  But even the Bible says, your troubles are fewer if you can restrain yourself! LoL!! Just say no!! This world is full of frauds.. People who will purposely cause you to think they believe the same, and after marriage, the hammer drops and the truth comes out.

We are bombarded by society with the flesh. My point, though, I guess is this.. IF one IS willing to be ALL IN for Christ, then WHY fly in the face of the foundations OF these people who WERE, no question, ALL IN for Christ???

 

Our luxuries and comforts have taken us SO FAR AWAY from our foundations.. All this that they offer today, that even we say is just part of life, is DESIGNED to broaden the gulf between God and us..

 

Make us TOO used to EASE... Our way has been set for years, why, now, would anyone want to change things, INSTEAD of researching HOW THEY did things? What did the DIRECT Voice of God do to thier hearts and motivations? NOT, Hey, did they have woemn pastors?

 

Our lusts have been played to for too long and we have been lulled..

What was the role of women in the Old testament,you will find out that Levite have there role,same as the house af Aaron and again Moses.therefore Women are not suppose to be Pastprs and Elders bt lleaders its fine.Another point tp note is that women should preach in terms of Evangelism nowoder why we have Literature evangelist

Hi Andrew.

According to the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy women should preach and become pastors and leaders but there is nothing in either of these sources of inspiration which endorse women as elders. Nothing is said about women being in position as elders of the church.

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, TO BECOME PASTORS to the flock of God."--6T 322

Missionary work--introducing our publications into families, conversing, and praying with and for them--is a good work and one which will educate men and women to do pastoral labor.--Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 390. 

The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth.--Review and Herald, Jan 2, 1879.

 The printed page cannot accomplish alone the work that the living minister can do. He can explain the Scriptures to the people, praying with them and appealing to them, and making effective the truths of the Bible. Not merely one or two men are called to do this work, but many men and women who have ability to preach and teach the Word. --Letter 142, 1909, pp. 4-6. (12MR 165.3)

Aaron and Miriam had occupied a position of high honor and leadership in Israel. {PP 382.3}  

Notice that there is nothing in God's counsel to the church requiring women to be ordained in order to preach, pastor or lead.

Unfortunately, it appears that there are some misguided souls in the church who are of a strong opinion and insisting that women be ordained even though there is nothing in the Bible and Spirit of prophecy to support their opinion about women's ordination.

Even stranger, is the fact that those who believe that women should be ordained are actually limiting women's potential for laboring for God by insisting that women should be ordained.

Neither the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy require that women be ordained before they can preach and become pastors or leaders. 

 

Why are men and women requiring and insisting that women be ordained when God calls women to preach and become pastors and leaders WITHOUT BEING ORDAINED ?

 

Who is responsible for conceiving this requirement when God has made no such stipulation ?

 

This ordination of women is not a requirement from God. Since God is not requiring women's ordination in order for women to preach and become pastors and leaders, who is insisting on it and why ?

 

I pray that we will stop allowing our progress as a church to be hindered by strong opinions and feelings that have nothing to do with what our heavenly Father has given to us in the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy regarding this issue and other issues dividing us at the present time.

@Tyrone

While I can not fully agree with you on this point at present I am not closed minded on gaining more light either, so please take no offense when I ask this, because I do not doubt your honesty. But when was the copy of her book you are getting that from printed, and who published it?

I only ask this, because her work has been largely edited and tampered with over the years as the copy writes have run out.. So as I have been researching it I have only been able to find a few reliable sources any more besides the rely old books... If you read any of the Happiness Digest stuff from the past several years you would likely be disturbed to find out that half of the things she has said have either been edited or are missing... (I find it even more depressing that this edited version is all we have to give the new babes in Christ.)

I guess if the devil messed with our Bibles it was only a matter of time before her work got hit as well...

If it's an old enough book, or from the one trustworthy publisher I know to be left then I am definitely interested in more info..

@Kristina

Hi Kristina.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me regarding this issue.

The quotes I posted cite the sources at the end of the quotes. Essentially the Testimonies, an earlier letter and a Review and Herald statement. These sources are not later compilations of the writings of EGW.

Unless you have references that speak to the contrary, I have to rest my confidence in what has been given for our counsel through the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, not merely an opinion or a speculation about the writings of EGW. 

Gods does call women to preach, and pastor and lead but He has not revealed any requirement for women to be ordained by the laying on of hands in order to fulfill these roles.

I contend that those who are insisting on women's ordination are requiring something that God does not and are thereby actually limiting or restricting women's potential to labor as God desires.

 

If you have Bible and Spirit of prophecy statements that show our heavenly Father does not want women to preach or to become pastors and leaders, please share it.

 

Thank you for allowing my reply.

@Tyrone

Thank you for providing a clear and concise quote, and being kind in your response. Few here on your side of the debate have. I totally agree that the Bible and SOP must be our guides not opinion, or emotion.

That being said, I have read a lot from her that states the contrary, but that's not to say you aren't right, but only that we should compare notes. I haven't done a comprehensive study on that topic yet, as I have been working on a few others, but will look for the quotes I found in my regular reading.

I know that at many times like for example in her instruction on diet she received greater light overtime and changed her position on some things, so that very well could have happened here as well.. So send me a friend request on here and as we both dig maybe we can put together a timeline of statements on this subject and see what happened. I think since we are both intellectually honest about this we can help each other out quite a bit, and possibly others, by combining our efforts in this study. You want to?

@Kristina

I appreciate your invitation to study this together and will send a friend request to you.

I would additionally ask that you share at least one or two quotes for the benefit of this forum and this discussion in particular so that those who are also sincerely seeking answers may begin to decide for themselves.

Decide to study further, decide not to study at all or just continue to observe.

Please post any quotes or references that you have from the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy that show God does not want women to preach, to be pastors or leaders.

Thank you for allowing my reply.

The ordination of a person is a requirement of sanction that states the organization/denomination recognizes and affirms the persons spiritual leadership.  This is for the non-believer and secular circles that require it as verification that a person is not simply "claiming to preach" but they have the support and backing of their respective churches.  

Just as I have to have achieved the highest level of credentials required in my area of expertise, with the backing of the School District and State of Tennessee--not just demonstrate that I have the ability to be a successful counselor to be respected and have influence with those that I serve--ordination serves the same purpose.  I want someone who has had hands laid on them--what ever the ceremony is being called, it is Biblical and necessary.

Frankly, I would be hesitant to sit under someone spiritually that is not either working towards or has acquired the highest level of credential available--or in any area.  Those are things that speak to one's seasoning, experience, and the support of the organization.  You wouldn't go to a doctor as an expert for something serious without wanting to see their credential, why settle for less when it comes to one's salvation?  If one is not going to ordain a female, then don't ordain the male.  Simple.

And yet, it is still necessary to expand our spiritual borders, in the U.S....so then both need it here.

  

@Sarah

Hi Sarah.

Thank you for sharing your comments about ordination.

I note that you have expressed your personal preference for someone who is credentialed and I respect your opinion about ordination of women.

Does God require it (ordination by laying on of hands) in order for women to function in the capacities and roles that He has appointed them ?

If God does require it then we should be able to find His counsel stating such in the same way He has made plain His will regarding men being ordained as elders or ministers.

If God does not require it and He is willing to allow women to fulfill their roles without ordination, why shouldn't we simply accept God's verdict about it ? Why do we want to create a requirement for women to do what God has told them to do when He hasn't even required it ?

God has stated what the requirements are so why isn't that enough ? Do we realize that Jesus had to often correct the Sadducees and Pharisees for adding requirements to God's instructions that God Himself never authorized ?

Pardon me for saying so but I believe God is the one who made the distinction between male and female in the first place and He is the one who assigns different roles and responsibilities to them. Doesn't He have the right to decide who must meet what requirements ?

Does God have the right to say who should be ordained and who shouldn't ? If His revealed will comes to us through the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy should we give place to human opinion about it ?

Please pardon my ignorance regarding this issue. I don't want to make choices based solely on human opinion.

If someone knows of anything that has been posted already or some instruction from God in the Bible or Spirit of prophecy suggesting that women should be ordained by the laying on of hands please share it with me. I have seen God's instruction about men being ordained by the laying on of hands but I have not seen any instruction from God to do the same for women.

In some respects a doctor and a minister are similar in that the results of their work can have eternal consequences. Yet a doctor's highest allegiance is not necessarily to God or His words and therefore he may feel no obligation to harmonize with the will of God. 

Credentials may be evidence of state approval but they are not evidence of character.

I would sooner trust a woman with a Christlike character than a woman with the highest credentials whose chief goal was to obtain those credentials.

Since the Bible and Spirit of prophecy are conspicuously silent upon women's ordination I accept the lack of instruction and/or counsel to ordain woman by the laying on of hands as God's opinion about it.

Thank you for allowing my reply

The Bible directly calls for the laying of hands on those that are called to service for the LORD.  To suggest that God has changed his mind and is suddenly a respector of persons is incomprehensible and just plain wrong as it goes directly against scripture.  As I have also stated, to further suggest that it is Biblically sound for a person to do the exact same job, but not have the same benefits is akin to prostitution and slavery.

My God in scripture states that He is NOT a respector of persons....We are further told in Ephesians 4 that Christ dispersed spiritual gifts to who He will...including that of a pastor.  I am following the Word...and not tradition.  

It seems that man (a few to some males in general--and few women who do not realize who they are in Christ) are the only ones having a problem with this--not the LORD.

Sarah, there women who are equally against the ordination of women pastors. Emotionalism, that is, cries of misogyny, do nothing to further clear discussion. It is often used as a last resort when a position cannot be supported any other way.

Ordination is not a requirement to the Gospel work, neither is title. The Church's approval is shown by the issuing of credentials.

The lack of ordination as pastors did not prevent women from labouring in all areas of the Gospel work for the first century of our (SDA) church's existence - what has changed today? Why is there a need for women to be ordained to work now?

Surely it is only correct for a "thus sayeth the Lord" to be produced to justify this, or any, change?

Otherwise we throw away any claim to be people of "the Book" and become just like the daughters of Babylon - blowing with the winds of popular opinion.

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