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Should women preach, become elders, pastors, leaders?

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No, women are not doing "the exact same job".

In regard to the pay issue... now you're getting closer to the background to the ordination issue - this whole issue was sparked by the church ordaining workers in order to benefit from the reduction in tax. That's where the idea of "commissioning" women came from.

If it is pay equality that you are arguing for then that is a bad basis on which to change the established church order in regard to ordination. 

You're right the women are doing more.....

@Teresa

Read the context "I mention the name of sister Strong on this occasion.  My views and feelings are that the minister's wife stands in so close a relation to  the work of God, a relation which so affects him  for better or worse, that she should, in the ordination prayer, be set apart as his helper."

He is honoring the fact that they are one flesh, not ordaining her, but including her in the prayer for the benefit of her husband, that she may be a blessing to him in his work.....

@Teresa

Is that how you intend on responding to everything you don't have a logical answer for? It's ok to not know something, we all have a lot that we don't have an answer for, and I was willing to admit when Tyrone gave me a quote that made me question my stance enough to dig more deeply in to the subject so that I know I have the correct stance whatever it may be.. But we shouldn't be willing to take anything out of context to prove our point.

@Teresa

Hi Teresa.

The requirement that men be ordained by the laying on of hands comes from the example of the gospel order in the early church and the instruction of the angel given to Ellen G. White. I will share some of my research with the hope of inspiring others to come forth with their evidences from the Bible and Spirit of prophecy as well.

Here are the Bible references for 7 men ordained by laying on of hands as required by the Holy Ghost and for two men also ordained by laying of hands as the Holy Spirit saw fit. - Acts 6:1-7 and Acts 13:2,3

Here are two of the EGW references regarding the ordination of men as ministers.

I saw that we are no more secure from false teachers now than they were in the apostles' days; and, if we do no more, we should take as special measures as they did to secure the peace, harmony, and union of the flock. We have their example, and should follow it. Brethren of experience and of sound minds should assemble, and following the Word of God and the sanction of the Holy Spirit, should, with fervent prayer, lay hands upon those who have given full proof that they have received their commission of God, and set them apart to devote themselves entirely to His work. This act would show the sanction of the church to their going forth as messengers to carry the most solemn message ever given to men.  {EW 101.1}  

I saw that this door at which the enemy comes in to perplex and trouble the flock can be shut. I inquired of the angel how it could be closed. He said, "The church must flee to God's Word and become established upon gospel order, which has been overlooked and neglected." This is indispensably necessary in order to bring the church into the unity of the faith. I saw that in the apostles' day the church was in danger of being deceived and imposed upon by false teachers. Therefore the brethren chose men who had given good evidence that they were capable of ruling well their own house and preserving order in their own families, and who could enlighten those who were in darkness. Inquiry was made of God concerning these, and then, according to the mind of the church and the Holy Ghost, they were set apart by the laying on of hands. (EW 100,101)

When Jesus had ended His instruction to the disciples, He gathered the little band close about Him, and kneeling in the midst of them, and laying His hands upon their heads, He offered a prayer dedicating them to His sacred work. Thus the Lord's disciples were ordained to the gospel ministry.  {DA 296.3} 

God cautions regarding ordaining men:

. Great care should be exercised in ordaining men for the ministry. There should be a close investigation of their experience. Do they know the truth, and practice its teachings? Have they a character of good repute? Do they indulge in lightness and trifling, jesting and joking? In prayer do they reveal the Spirit of God? Is their conversation holy, their conduct blameless? All these questions need to be answered before hands are laid upon any man to dedicate him to the work of the ministry. We should heed the words of inspiration, "Lay hands suddenly on no man." {RH, October 21, 1890 par. 10} 

Teresa there is instruction in the writings of EGW to ordain women by the laying on of hands for something.

I know what it is for I have searched it out.

What evidence from the Bible and Spirit of prophecy have you gathered showing that women should or should not be and that men should or should not be ordained by the laying on of hands to become pastors ?

Thank you for allowing my reply.

This is what I found from Wikipedia on: Seventh-day Adventist theology on this topic: 

Ordination of women

The Adventist Church world church does not, at this time, support the ordination of women to ministry within its standard procedures, instead women pastors in the denomination hold the title of "commissioned" rather than "ordained" which allows them to perform all pastoral functions their male colleagues perform but with a lesser title. The compromise was reached and voted on during the 1990s with disagreement primarily occurring on along cultural lines.[88][89] In 2010, the North American region of the church voted to allow commissioned pastors to lead a Conference or Mission, as well as ordained ones.[90] In March 2012, the Mid America Union voted to support the ordination of women to ministry within its territory, a position contrary to that voted on by the world church.[91] A Pacific Union Conference action closely followed suit reaffirming "their strong commitment to the ordination of women" and planning further study for specific proposals at its next meeting.[92] The Columbia Union also reaffirmed its commitment toward officially ordaining women at its meeting in March 2012.[93] The Potomac Conference promptly affirmed their intention to move ahead with the ordination of women pending approval from the Columbia Union.[94] Also in March 2012, the Adventist Church in Southeastern California voted to move ahead with the ordination of women and issue all its current women pastors with ordination certificates.[95]

I still believe as Ray and Alexander do - that women should not be allowed to hold positions as Pastors - but not saying they cannot preach - eg lets say if a Pastor was not available or to preach with permission from a Pastor. From the bible - and with messages from Paul - men are in charge of church and home - not women. Of women have rights - naturally - but men are the leaders according to GOD!

From the Bible, the Husband (if there is one...another thread altogether) is ultimately responsible for the home.

A good read about this topic from the link below:

http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article/143/women-s-ordination-faqs...

more information I got from the internet from this link: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/Church-Pasto...

Question
Are females allowed to be pastors in thr SDA church? 

Answer
Currently, women may be *licensed* as Adventist ministers, but they may not be *ordained* as ministers.  

There are a number of women pastors, especially in North America, Australia, and Europe.  Women pastors are not so common in many other parts of the world.

Here are a few links to websites of churches with female pastors:

http://www.campushillchurch.org/team.htm
http://www.collegeviewchurch.org/staff/index.php

It should be noted that this is a "hot topic" in the Adventist church -- some members and leaders are strongly in favor of women's ordination, and some are strongly opposed to it.

Hope this helps.  Please let me know if you have any additional questions or need more explanation on anything I've said.

Kendra 

Except China.....

Hi Andrew.

I think the question of whether women should preach, become elders, pastors and leaders is a good question to discuss but it should ultimately be answered by a thus saith the Lord. We can all be benefited by become better acquainted with the will of God as revealed through the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. If that is the end towards which this question moves us, then it is good.

In many respects a woman can impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. Ms 43a, 1898.

Women can be instruments of righteousness, rendering holy service to God. It was Mary who first preached a risen Saviour.  {RH, January 2, 1879 par. 1}

 If devoted to God, women can do fully as much good by opening the Scriptures in families as the ministers can.  {RH, November 3, 1885 par. 12}  

It seems that God intends pastoral labor for women to the flock of God means something different than pastoral women for men to the flock of God. Both men and women have unique contributions that we are capable of giving to ministry and it could be in our respective and distinct roles that each of us are to fill these roles accordingly.

I have faith in our heavenly Father's ability to give us answers and solve our difficulties. These questions are not hard for him. Maybe we should try to understand the meaning of pastors as God intended it to mean for women and as He intended it to mean for men.

Just as a point of reference, two previous discussions, two years ago, covered some of these issues quite extensively

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/womens-ordinaton-gods-plan

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/a-victory-for-women-pas...

Thank you for allowing my reply

Sarah, there women who are equally against the ordination of women pastors. Emotionalism, that is, cries of misogyny do nothing to further clear discussion. It is often used as a last resort when a position cannot be supported any other way.

Ordination is not a requirement to the Gospel work, neither is title. The Church's approval is shown by the issuing of credentials.

The lack of ordination as pastors did not prevent women from labouring in all areas of the Gospel work for the first century of our (SDA) church's existence - what has changed today? Why is there a need for women to be ordained to work now?

Surely it is only correct for a "thus sayeth the Lord" to be produced to justify this change otherwise we throw away any claim to be people of "the Book" and become just like the daughters of Babylon - blowing with the winds of popular opinion?

@Sarah.

Hi Sarah.

Please allow me to reference your reply:

Sarah said: The Bible directly calls for the laying of hands on those that are called to service for the LORD. 

Tyrone replies: Actually the only verses that address the laying on of hands for ordination to the ministry refer to men and are as follows:

Lay hands suddenly on no MAN, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22)

Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven MEN of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business...Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them. (See Acts 6:3-6)

Sarah replies: To suggest that God has changed his mind and is suddenly a respector of persons is incomprehensible and just plain wrong as it goes directly against scripture.

 

Tyrone replies: I agree but I have a question. Who is suggesting that God changed His mind ?

 

Sarah replies: As I have also stated, to further suggest that it is Biblically sound for a person to do the exact same job, but not have the same benefits is akin to prostitution and slavery.

 

Tyrone replies: I'm not even sure what you mean by "benefits" here. Are men and women supposed to be preaching or becoming leaders or pastoring for "benefits" ? This is a strange teaching. However, you may have to correct Jesus because he told a parable about 11th hour laborers who worked less than workers who had been in the field all day and yet they got the same amount of money. According to Jesus the Lord of the vineyard has a right to do as He pleases with His own. (Matthew 20:1-15)

 

Sarah replies: My God in scripture states that He is NOT a respector of persons

 

Tyrone replies: I agree. We have no disagreement here.

 

I would go further to state that according to the Bible He is not a respecter of persons and He has not made all persons alike. That is why everyone does not have the exact same roles and responsibilities in His church. God chose only men for the role of priests and ministers of the earthly sanctuary. Does that mean He is a respecter of persons ? 

 

Sarah replies: We are further told in Ephesians 4 that Christ dispersed spiritual gifts to who He will...including that of a pastor

 

Tyrone replies: I agree. We have no disagreement here.

 

We should note further that Ephesians 4 also says nothing about women being ordained as pastors or elders by the laying on of hands. 

 

Sarah replies:  I am following the Word...and not tradition.  

 

Tyrone replies: You are following the Word regarding what ?

 

Sarah replies: It seems that man (male) has more of a problem with this--not the LORD.

 

Tyrone replies: I accept that this is just another expression of your opinion. I will humbly point out however that you have provided NO verses showing that God desires for women to be ordained as ministers or elders by the laying on of hands.

 

I have no problem accepting what God says about it. Women should preach, become pastors and even leaders but I still have yet to see one verse or one statement from the Spirit of prophecy suggesting that they must be or should be ordained by the laying on of hands to do these things.

Thank you for allowing my reply.

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