If this is what Paul meant, isn't it pretty clear?
Women are not allowed to speak in church under any conditions. It is even a shame for women to speak in church. Period.
1 Corinthians 14:32-33
14:33 b-36. Some of the verses in this section (vv. 34-35) were felt by some early copyists to be out of place at this point in the letter and so were transposed to the end of the chapter. A more drastic approach taken by some recent commentators is to regard these verses as spurious and unworthy of comment. Though the exact meaning of these verses is difficult to determine, neither expedient has much to commend it. In fact it seems that the guiding thread which prompted these comments by Paul about women was the same theme developed in the preceding verses addressed to those gifted in tongues and prophecy. The church members needed to exercise self-control on occasion, a self-control expressed by silence (vv. 28,30,34) in order that the assembly might be characterized by peace.
Apparently certain women in the Corinthian assembly needed to hear this refrain. More than uncovered heads were amiss in regard to their participation in worship services (11:2-16), and Paul was not about to dodge the problem.
Whether the admonition for silence was directed to all women (cf. 11:2-16) or only to those who were married may be debated. The word translated women (gynaikes) was used to refer to women generally (as in all 11 occurrences in 11:3-15), or to unmarried women (e.g., 7:34), or to married women (e.g., 5:1; 9:5; and all 14 occurrences in chap. 7 except once in 7:34). The context alone aided the readers in distinguishing between the alternative meanings.
Two indications strongly suggest that married women were in view in this passage. The first is the word submission (hypotassesthosan, v. 34). When it occurs elsewhere in the New Testament with specific reference to a woman, it always refers to a married woman who was to be subject to her husband (Eph 5:22; Col 3:18; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1,5).
The second indication is the phrase their own husbands (1 Cor 14:35), whom the inquisitive women were to consult if they had questions. This would obviously be a difficult assignment for single women (e.g., 7:34) or those with unbelieving husbands (e.g., 7:13).
First Timothy 2:11-15, which enjoins women to be quiet in worship, is frequently cited as a parallel to this passage. But there too, married women were probably in view, as verse 15 would not apply to an unmarried woman. Also, when Eve is named in the Old Testament, it is as Adam's wife (Gen 3:20; cf. 2 Cor 11:2-3, the only other NT passage besides 1 Tim 2:13-14 that names Eve), and her submission is rooted in that relationship (Gen 3:16, the text Paul probably referred to in 1 Cor 14:34). In addition, the noun hesychia in 1 Tim 2:11-12 means "quietness, absence of disorder," whereas the verb sigao in 1 Cor 14:28,34 means "remain silent." (See comments on 1 Tim 2:11-14 and 2 Thess 3:12).
Paul then wanted silence on the parts of married women whose husbands were present in the assembly, but he permitted the participation of other women when properly adorned (1 Cor 11:2-16). Such silence would express their subordinate (but not inferior) relationship to their husbands. This contrasts with a disturbance caused by their talking to their husbands during the service.
The Corinthian believers were not to think of themselves as exclusive, independent interpreters or recipients of the Word of God (14:36). They, like those in all the congregations (v. 33 b), were to submit to God's truth by conforming to this standard of conduct. (from Bible Knowledge Commentary/Old Testament Copyright © 1983, 2000 Cook Communications Ministries; Bible Knowledge Commentary/New Testament Copyright © 1983, 2000 Cook Communications Ministries. All rights reserved.)
It is not the Woman's role to teach the Man, even on online forums.
Women have a special role, in regards to instructing each other and ministering to children.
lol sumaj. because they are allowed to do so they now want the male role .....
It appears that you have forgotten about Deborah, Huldah, and Anna....even Ellen White! You have just been "taught" about the Bible and the Seventh-day Adventist history from a Woman in an online forum!
Sarah, these women were chosen by God to be Prophetess
Women Are Not Ordained By God To Preach The Gospel
Both in the Old and the New Testaments, there is no place where God commanded a woman to teach, lead or rule over His people.
Rather, there are express commands to the contrary. The idea of a woman being a minister of God or His mouthpiece is in fact anathema to the Christian faith.
When at certain times in the history of the Jews they were led by women, the Bible did not fail to point out that this was a period of degeneration or decline in their devotion to God.
Hence Isaiah the prophet recorded this lamentation in Isaiah 3:12: "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."
In fact St Paul makes it clear that an effeminate (womanish man) will not enter the kingdom of God. Why? Because he is unable to exercise his authority as head of the woman.
The law in Genesis 3:16 is clear, "And he shall rule over thee."
The idea of a prophetess is alien to the Scriptures. Any reference to a woman as a prophetess in the Bible is a wrong translation.
This applies to such women as Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Anna etc. It was because the people of Israel had fallen deep into the mire that the woman Deborah, had the chance to judge matters or give counsel among them.
As it is written: "And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord, when Ehud was dead. And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, judged Israel at that time."
Note that Deborah did not call even herself a prophetess but a "mother in Israel" who uttered a song. (Judges 5:7,12)
It was Barak that led the assault on the enemy and led "captivity captive".
Huldah was also not a prophet of God. She only came into play at the time the Jews had sold themselves to false religion.
The situation was so bad that the law book of God, through which the people should know their left from their right, was not found until about the 18th year of King Josiah's reign.
The discovery was made while the temple was being renovated by Hilkiah, who was the high priest then. When King Josiah caused the law book to be read to him he was so shocked by the extent of deviation that he rent his clothes.
And what did the so-called prophetess prophesy? She only quoted the word of God as recorded by earlier prophets. "And she said unto them, thus said the Lord God of Israel , Tell the man that sent you to me, thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read" (2 Kings 22:16-17).
After quoting what is in the law, she proved her true colour when she made a false prophecy: "that Josiah shalt be gathered into his grave in peace".
But this was not the case, as Josiah died violently in the hands of Pharaoh Nechoh, King of Egypt - having obviously been emboldened by the false prophecy of Huldah. (2 Kings 23:28-30; 2 Chronicles 35:20-27).
The Bible says: "The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the Lord hath truly sent him." - Jeremiah 28:9.
Miriam was called a prophetess in Exodus 15:20. But what did she do? She merely led the people of Israel with timbrels and dances after the crossing of the Red Sea.
When she assayed to be a prophet, God made it clear that she was being presumptuous as it is written: "And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses. And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? Hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it. And he (the Lord) said; Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." (Numbers 12:1-6).
Miriam was punished with leprosy while Aaron, who quickly asked Moses to intercede for them, was spared because he was a Priest of God. - Numbers 12:9-16.
The prophets of God by virtue of the anointing spirit are able to see and understand spiritual things and are thus competent to testify to the truth of His word.
By the standard laid down in Numbers 12:6, any prophet of God MUST see the vision of God Almighty, hear his voice so that as St Peter said, he will testify of the things he has seen and heard. (Acts 4:20).
God has not revealed himself to any woman. He has never ordained any woman to be His mouthpiece as He did to Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, St. Paul etc.
In ordaining Jeremiah God declared, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) Which woman has God spoken to in this wise? In the case of Ezekiel, God said, "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me"Ezekiel 3:17.
Yes, the four daughters of Phebe prophesied. (Acts 21:9). The word "prophesy" is old English for preaching the word of God. But whom did these women preach to?
The Bible enjoins women to preach to their fellow women. St. Paul charged thus, "The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands that the word of God be not blasphemed" (Titus 2:3-5).
Today instead of women restricting themselves to the proper upbringing of their children and teaching their fellow women, they want to lead men.
It cannot be denied that the major cause of juvenile delinquency today is that women no longer have time to look after their children. Is the word of God not being blasphemed presently because of the activities of these women preachers?
The "sons and daughters" on whom the holy spirit fell on the day of Pentecost are symbolic terms referring to the Anointed Christians or Saints. And these are all men. The Saints are sons because they are men who belong to the spiritual house over which Jesus Christ is the head. (Hebrews 3:6; 1st Peter 2:5).
St. John said, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God..." (1 John 3:2). The Saints are also called the "general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written in heaven" "first fruits of God's creatures", "chosen from among men" (Hebrews 12:23; James 1:18; Revelation 14:4).
The apostles are called daughters of Zion (Zechariah 9:9) or "the bride, the lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9) because they are married spiritually to Jesus Christ in order to bring forth children to God by the propagation of the gospel.
Hence St. Paul asserted "For in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." (1st Corinthians 4:15). The saints numbering 144,000, of whom the 12 apostles are the foundation members, are chosen from all parts of the world.
Because they are few, they are also known as "one among a thousand".
"One man among a thousand have I found" said Prophet Solomon, "but a woman among all those have I not found." (Ecclesiastes 7:8; See also Job 33:23).
On the day of Pentecost, only the 12 apostles received the anointing of the holy spirit. Hence these statements:"These men are full of new wine" and "St. Peter, standing up with the eleven" Acts 2:13,14.
All the apostles of Christ, even the 70 evangelizers, were all men. - Luke 6:12,13; Luke 10:1; 1st Corinthians 12:28-31.
Women do not need to preach the gospel to be saved by God. There are many things they can do in support of the work of God.
We have already seen how Miriam led the women in songs and dances after the historic crossing of the Red Sea.
Women can give material and moral support to the progress of the work of God. That was the case in the time of Jesus.
The Bible shows that such women as Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, and Joana the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, ministered unto Christ of their substance. (Luke 8:3).
Of course the women could not have been preaching to Jesus Christ. Rather, they supported the work with material things. It was in this sense that St. Paul charged the Church in Philippi to "help those women which labored with me in the gospel" - Philippians 4:3.
Moreover, the fact of a woman's physiology which renders her unclean at certain times in the month and the strains of motherhood make her grossly unsuitable for the work of preaching the gospel.
She defiles the altar by climbing the pulpit to preach. The law of God says that after a woman's menstruation, she remains unclean seven days. It is on the eight day she should go with two turtles and two young pigeons for the priest to offer a sin offering and a burnt offering - "lest they defile the tabernacle and die in their uncleanness". (Leviticus 15:19-32).
With the grace brought by Christ, women are no longer required to stay out of the congregation for seven days: but the fact that the woman is unclean at various times because of her biological make-up, and is thus in a spiritually impure state at such times still remains valid.
Jesus Christ warned against spiritual defilement. (Mark 7:14-20). Hence St. Paul's admonition for Christians to avoid "uncleanness" and to cleanse themselves "of every filthiness of the flesh and spirit". - Galatians 5:19; 2 Corinthians 7:1.
It bears repeating that the women who are now prancing about, claiming to be preaching the gospel are defiling the places of worship.
"Surely, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity". - Ezekiel 5:11.
When St. Paul said that in Christ there is neither male nor female he did not by that mean that women are also free to preach the gospel. Rather he was talking of the common salvation to which both men and women are equally called. This does not rule out the fact that in running the race of salvation everyone must work according to the order or rules set by God lest one be disqualified. - 1st Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 2:4.
The Lambeth Conference decision of 1978 allowing individual provinces in the Anglican Communion to take their own decision on the matter of ordination of women as priests is directly at odds with the Holy Bible and was meant to please men.
Once the Church begins to seek favour from men as against that of God her claim to belong to God is at once impeached.
Said St. Paul: "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10) And Christ warned "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets." - Galatians 1:10; Luke 6:26; 1 Thessalonians 2:4; James 4:4.
Of a truth, any thought or activity that is not in harmony with the will of God will sooner than later become odious to right thinking people.
In a recent write up in the The Post Express on Sunday of September 10, 2000, Mr. Zebulon Agomuo reflected the disenchantment of a growing number of right-thinking people over this Jezebel plague that is now afflicting humanity.
He complained that the so-called women pastors were "scantily dressed even as they were doing acrobatics before the teeming congregation". "We now see many pastors wives turning the church into a fashion house. They look so artificial." He asked: "What is artificial nail (of the hawk type) doing on the fingers of a lady bishop?" You see them and you almost assume they are heading for a club, but for a copy of the Bible in their hand. Today the sing-song is that God is not interested in what we wear, but with our hearts. Our Churches have been hijacked by women who have no regard for sensible dressing." - Post Express September 10, 2000. Page 24.
Of course it is not true that God "is not interested in what people wear". God Almighty is a God of order (1st Corinthians 14:33,40) He gave specific instructions about proper dressing in the Holy Bible, spelling out what the priests should wear. (Exodus 28:1-2). How can one's faith be known except by what one does? (James 2:12,14-26; 1:25)
Prophet Solomon in Proverbs 7: 10 speaks of a woman with the attire of an harlot . In other words what one wears conveys an immediate impression of the type of person one is. If a woman dresses as a harlot, she should not blame anybody for concluding she is one.
It was because Tamar, daughter in-law to Judah was dressed as a harlot that she was able to attract the attention of Judah according Genesis 38. And God Almighty specifically gave commandment on dressing in Deuteronomy 22:5, "the woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."
And St. Paul emphasized modesty in dressing in 1st Timothy 2:18-19 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."
Please juxtapose the above citations with the following observations by Mr. Agumuo "These women of God are flashy and they know it. They are chauffeur driven in choice cars that have become the label of the new generation men of God. Their mode of dressing is trendy. At every church service, they always step out in trendy, imaginative and eye catching designer attires that conspicuously distinguish them as women with lots of money. They have smooth and dazzling skin with glowing complexion".
Another Nigerian daily; The Comet, in a recent issue carried the story of one "Pastor" Bimbo Odukoya of Fountain of Life Ministries, Ilupeju, Lagos, the lady pastor claims she has a special ministry named Singles and Married which focuses on marriage and relationships: She says " I believe our God is a beautiful God, so I should be able to portray Him as a beautiful God, being His representative." -The Comet, Sunday July 23, 2000 page 13.
No, God does not make a woman His representative. It was the man God made in his own image. (Genesis 1:27).
St. Paul said, "the man being the image of God is the glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man" (1st Corinthians 11:7).
And in 1st Corinthians 11:3, St Paul further stated: "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God".
We cannot wish away the following express commands of God from the Holy Bible. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (1st Corinthians 14:33-35).
Why did St. Paul say it was a shame for women to be teachers in the Church? Because it shows that none of the men is competent to teach or lead except the woman contrary to the law of God in Genesis 3:16.
St. Paul further declares "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." - 1st Timothy 2:9-15 . It was because Eve was a weaker vessel (1st Peter 3:7) that Satan was able to deceive her. But the man knew Satan was lying. He deliberately sinned against God because of his love for the woman. How can God hand over His work to a weaker vessel? It is inconceivable.
In the light of the points adduced in this article, it goes without saying that the women who claim to have seen a "vision of God" and that God directed them to go out and preach are either deluded or are merely deceiving people for filthy lucre's sake. They are false prophets.
God said: "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied"(Jeremiah 23:21)
God spoke through Jeremiah "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! They have seen vanity and lying divinations, saying, The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The Lord saith it: albeit I have not spoken?" (Ezekiel 13:2-3,6-7).
And what do these so-called pastors, prophetesses see? They tell the people what they want to hear - what prophet Micah calls "visions of wine and strong drink". (Micah 2:11) - promises of prosperity, wealth, promotion; of getting suitable partners and retaining them, of receiving the fruit of the womb, and so on.
These female Bishops and pastors repent should stop their obnoxious claims and practices through which they work against God's purpose and bring reproach to His Holy name.
"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin" (Isaiah 30:1).
One cannot fail to highlight the following warning to the present day Jezebels. "Notwithstanding, I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children (in this context her companions and followers) with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." - Revelation 2:20-22
Huldah IS a prophetess of God! Your reference is in error....
"Go, enquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book.
And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college:) and they spake to her to that effect.
And she answered them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell ye the man that sent you to me, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah: Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.
And as for the king of Judah, who sent you to enquire of the LORD, so shall ye say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel concerning the words which thou hast heard;
"Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD. Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again."--2 Chronicles 34:21-28.
oh thx i thought this was sound biblically i will read into it.
...Wow interesting stuff he said there don't you think so ? I have never seen it that way before
2 Chronicles 35:21-23 explains why King Josiah died violently instead of peacefully. His death came from later disobedience:
"After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Charchemish by Euphrates: and Josiah went out against him. But he sent ambassadors to him, saying, What have I to do with thee, thou king of Judah? I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith I have war: for God commanded me to make haste: forbear thee from meddling with God, who is with me, that he destroy thee not.
"Nevertheless Josiah would not turn his face from him, but disguised himself, that he might fight with him, and hearkened not unto the words of Necho from the mouth of God, and came to fight in the valley of Megiddo. And the archers shot at king Josiah; and the king said to his servants, Have me away; for I am sore wounded.
His servants therefore took him out of that chariot, and put him in the second chariot that he had; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died, and was buried in one of the sepulchres of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah."--2 Chronicles 35:20-24
While you present many good points, your entier discission is weakened by some very obvious errors. As I list them, please remember that in the main the post is a good one.
1. "The idea of a woman being a minister of God or His mouthpiece is in fact anathema to the Christian faith." and later
"The idea of a prophetess is alien to the Scriptures. Any reference to a woman as a prophetess in the Bible is a wrong translation.
This applies to such women as Deborah, Huldah, Miriam, Anna etc. It was because the people of Israel had fallen deep into the mire that the woman Deborah, had the chance to judge matters or give counsel among them."
This in error. The difference between the prophetess' in the Bible including Ellen White and the woman that are ordained today is that God ordained the ones mentioned in the Bible and EGW, while men ordain the elders and pastors. As such, their ordination is not from God, but from man. While no prophet God has ordained/called is ordained of man.
2. "Huldah was also not a prophet of God. She only came into play at the time the Jews had sold themselves to false religion."
Since Sarah has adequatly covered this, I'll not repeat what she wrote.
3. "When she assayed to be a prophet, God made it clear that she was being presumptuous as it is written: "And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses. And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? Hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it. And he (the Lord) said; Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." (Numbers 12:1-6). "
Aaron and Miriam's sin was not in seeking to be a prophet/prophetess. They wanted to be equal with Moses. Moses was more then a prophet, he spoke with God face to face. See Exodus 33:11. Miram and Aaron were not able to do that and they wanted that position. This was her sin, as God had indeed called her to be a prophetess.
4. "Yes, the four daughters of Phebe prophesied. (Acts 21:9)."
These were the four daughters of Philip, not Phebe.
5. "One cannot fail to highlight the following warning to the present day Jezebels."
The word: "Jezebel" actually means: "Chaste." Which would hardly apply to some of the women who have been ordained that I have heard of. However, it would hardly apply to some of the men who have been ordained that I know of either.
See, Jason, I have been following this discussion about women being ordained for over 40 years now, ever since it broke onto the chuch scene back in the late 60's early 70's. I, as yourself, was decieved at first, in the beleif that it was a gender issue. While that is part of it, it is more of a submission and obedience issue. When this is seen, one will not make the mistakes that you did in your presentation.
Again, you brought out many good points. However, the overall effect is dimished by the glaring errors. Remember what the Bible says:
"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth." 2 TIimothy 2:15 NASB
This is far more important then seeming good arguments that are fatally flawed, like the arguments for the ordination of women.
Ray i just thought that this would be an interesting read for Sarah lol. This guy and I believe different things
Jason. You say "Women Are Not Ordained By God To Preach The Gospel".
Apparently you must not believe in our prophet. For Ellen White stated just this. She indicated that she was ordained by God to preach the Gospel.
I think we have to take the word of our prophet. At least I choose to.
PS. If you want the photos of her credentials that she signed - I would be happy to provide them for you. She was an ordained minister. And certainly God ordained her.