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"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son..." (Jn 3:16)

God the Father loved the world. Did the Son share this love? Did He ALSO love the world?

We need not entertain a single doubt upon this point. The Son may be honored equally when it comes to the motivation behind the great venture. (Jn 5:23).

But in real terms, who initiated it? What were some of the mechanics behind the Father actually giving and sending forth His Son? For those that accept the words of Ellen White there is some striking clarity on this matter.

The following scene is described. It takes place in heaven, after Adam's fall.

"Soon I saw Him [Jesus] approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a lovliness which words cannot describe. He then made know to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; THAT HE HAD BEEN PLEADING WITH THE FATHER, and had obtained PERMISSION to give His own life as a ransom for the race..."

(Early Writings p.126)

It was only after Jesus asked -- it was only after Jesus had pleaded with His Father -- that He might be allowed to give His life, that the Father "GAVE" His Son. It is clear I think, that the Father would never have sent His Son, had Jesus not first asked to go. And Jesus would never have taken such a step without seeking the permission and approval of the Father.

"Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them." (ibid. p.127)

HE GAVE.

The Father did not "loan" Jesus to the human family as a temporary measure (i.e. it was not simply a matter of 33 years). It behooved Him [it was imperative to Jesus] to be made like His prospective brethren. And when He took humanity upon Himself, the Divine Son took it upon Himself for ever. He retains humanity [albeit glorified humanity,] to this day, and its limitations are upon Him for eternity. Did the Son give up His omnipresence? If He did, the limitations of humanity go far beyond the loss of omnipresence! The sacrifice undertaken by the Father, Son, and Spirit was enormous. Yet we have such a dim, flickering, view of what it cost each one of them, but our salvation cost them an everlasting cost, and it was the Son that carried the greatest burden.

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Noel

I think your issue is that you believe that Ellen White is infallible, so if she did make a mistake you would miss it.

Leon

Reasoning,

If we follow the scriptures, we can obtain a fuller understanding of the FATHER in respect to giving the Son.

You as well as Noel may be trying to justify the quote of from Sister White in ascribing our own feeling to God.

God has said He is not a man, and that His thoughts and ways are far higher than ours. Of course we don’t need to justify God, God justifies Himself.

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

The Bible tells us that the things that God reveals are for us, there are some things that God does not show us; those things belongs to Him.

I don’t think the Bible shows us fully the situation from God’s view, but I certainly don’t think that God was perplexed and troubled. Here is something that the Bile tells us, giving us just a glimpse of God mind. In the book of Romans it say…

He that did not spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all…Romans 8:32

The FATHER spared not his own Son for this effort, it was necessary to save the world.  The word spared means to not hold back.

The Aramaic Bible in Plain English reads the verse this way:

… he did not show pity upon his Son, but he handed him over for the sake of us all…

This tells me that God’s mind and everything that God is, which is LOVE was focus not on the act, but on the outcome; he did not show pity upon his Son, but he handed him over for the sake of us all.

This leads to the question asked, did Jesus have a say in this, in giving himself?  Jesus had full confidence in the FATHER, just as Isaac. I guess you can ask the same about Isaac; did he have a say? But this is different and I will show you why I say this. But Jesus was completely sure of the FATHER’s act of love.

Psalm 16: 9Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will dwell securely. 10For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

The Plan of Salvation was created before the foundation of the world, this is why Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Titus 1:2 says

…in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.

The Plan of Salvation was a creation, and it was created by the Godhead (God and the Word) before time began. When the act of LOVE was required, the FATHER implemented the Plan of Salvation and SENT the Son; he did not show pity upon his Son, but he handed him over for the sake of us all.

The SON at this point had nothing to say, the course of action, the act of LOVE was implemented.

Remember when Jacob deceived his father and stole his brother’s blessing?  Isaac blessing when forth.

…I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed. 34And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father. Genesis 27:33

The point here is when the blessing went forth, it was unchangeable, and unstoppable; the FATHER SENT the SON, nothing could stop that.

John 10: 17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."…

This commandment or the commission (as I pointed out to Noel), this charge, Jesus said,  I received from My Father; because The Plan of Salvation  was implemented by the FATHER. Not because the pleading of the Son, but because the Love God (The Elohim) demonstrated.

 

Peace

Gene: "If we follow the scriptures, we can obtain a fuller understanding of the FATHER in respect to giving the Son. You as well as Noel may be trying to justify the quote of from Sister White in ascribing our own feeling to God. God has said He is not a man, and that His thoughts and ways are far higher than ours. Of course we don’t need to justify God, God justifies Himself."

  No, I'm not trying to justify anything, just trying to give you a clearer understanding on what she meant by Jesus pleading to the Father. You seem to be putting it in a wrong context.

  Gene: "The Bible tells us that the things that God reveals are for us, there are some things that God does not show us; those things belongs to Him. I don’t think the Bible shows us fully the situation from God’s view, but I certainly don’t think that God was perplexed and troubled. Here is something that the Bile tells us, giving us just a glimpse of God mind. In the book of Romans it say…"

  I believe your right, what EGW wrote isn't in the Bible, but I believe the SOP gave her insight on what took place and she wrote it down. So your right, but this is not about EGW so much as to the main thing I was trying to point out, and that is GOD has feelings too!!  allot of those feelings we can relate to, things makes GOD happy, thing makes us happy, it's just that GOD'S Happy is on another higher level than ours. I pointed out that GOD has regrets and grieves. 

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

 But of course the way we regret and grieve is different from way GOD does.... So what I'm saying in what EGW wrote about Jesus pleading is not how you think, because as we agree the GOD HEAD ways and feelings are greater than ours. But still we can relate.

                                                 -------------------------------------------

Gene: "The FATHER spared not his own Son for this effort, it was necessary to save the world.  The word spared means to not hold back.

The Aramaic Bible in Plain English reads the verse this way:

… he did not show pity upon his Son, but he handed him over for the sake of us all…

This tells me that God’s mind and everything that God is, which is LOVE was focus not on the act, but on the outcome; he[GOD] did not show pity upon his Son, but he handed him over for the sake of us all.

This leads to the question asked, did Jesus have a say in this, in giving himself?  Jesus had full confidence in the FATHER, just as Isaac. I guess you can ask the same about Isaac; did he have a say? But this is different and I will show you why I say this. But Jesus was completely sure of the FATHER’s act of love."

                                                       ----------------------------------------------

 

  I never said GOD held back or had pity for HIS plan in giving HIS Son... so removed that from your mind.. I'm saying when sin came into the world the plan which has a glorious outcome indeed, but the act is everything. Are you telling me GOD didn't have feelings for the act that was to take place? That all HIS focus was the outcome?

 Why do you believe that? GOD is not a robot, first I'm sure HE had feelings that didn't make HIM feel good that sin came into the world, and that HIS only begotten Son would have to go through shame,  torture, pain, and death to save man from sin.

 EGW: ""Soon I saw Him [Jesus] approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a lovliness which words cannot describe. He then made know to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; THAT HE HAD BEEN PLEADING WITH THE FATHER, and had obtained PERMISSION to give His own life as a ransom for the race..." (Early Writings p.126)

   Yes I agree, I haven't seen the Bible talk about this event, with being shut in 3 times and the 3rd time coming from the enshrouded light, it's a vision she was giving. By her saying Jesus was free from all perplexity and trouble and shone with  a lovliness which words cannot describe, I think she is just stating what she saw, she didn't say Jesus was first perplexed and troubled and then that was removed from Him, she just stating how looked.

 Again, we agree GOD'S ways are different from ours, for you to think Jesus is pleading to persuade GOD to gave Him up to give His life, that GOD was reluctant to give up HIS only begotten Son and Jesus had to talk HIM into it, then that wrong. That's were you seem t be trying to take EGW's quote.

 

   I like the example of  son going to war.. The general of an army knows the only way to win this war is to give and send his son to the front lines, and knowing that he will die on this mission. A general is usually look at as firm and strong, don't see him emotional to much. But he summons his son in his barracks, though he is the general, he is first a farther and the Love he shows his son during that time is that of a loving caring Farther. Both knowing what takes place during that time doesn't do away with the reality that the son must go.

  Gene, when sin came into the world and GOD had to implement HIS plan, you don't think GOD had feelings on the part of HIS plan that requires the act of HIS Son dying? If so, what do you think they are?

  Being shut in doesn't have to imply GOD was holding Jesus back, but could imply there was a LOVE connection that we can't understand.. and Jesus all along pleading His life..  Just like Abraham, when Isaac was willing, he helped Abraham strap himself down, oh... the love between Father and son at that moment. 

 

EGW: "Yet none but God could understand how great was the father’s sacrifice in yielding up his son to death;...."  ---   "At the appointed place they built the altar and laid the wood upon it. Then, with trembling voice, Abraham unfolded to his son the divine message. It was with terror and amazement that Isaac learned his fate, but he offered no resistance. He could have escaped his doom, had he chosen to do so; the grief-stricken old man, exhausted with the struggle of those three terrible days, could not have opposed the will of the vigorous youth. But Isaac had been trained from childhood to ready, trusting obedience, and as the purpose of God was opened before him, he yielded a willing submission. He was a sharer in Abraham’s faith, and he felt that he was honored in being called to give his life as an offering to God. He tenderly seeks to lighten the father’s grief, and encourages his nerveless hands to bind the cords that confine him to the altar."

  The Bible says GOD grieves, but I'm sure it was on a higher level than Abraham when faced with having his son die... again, nothing with GOD holding anything back or being perplexed, or being talked into giving HIS Son. Being shut in 3 times I believe is a LOVE connection that we can never understand, but we can relate. We have an example when Jesus prayed 3 times to have the cup removed, do you believe GOD had feelings toward HIS Son during this time? This is a connection between SON and Father that only they could understand.

 

  I think your taking her words and making say something it's not... but hey if you don't believe her it's ok.. it's the SOP and some visions given could be questioned if you have a problem with it.

Blessings!

Hi Reasoning,

Now I never suggested that God did not have feelings, but we don’t know and I’m sure cannot understand the magnitude of Father feelings in giving the Son; maybe this is why God doesn’t even begin to open that channel up for us. Certainly we can’t compare our own feel with those of God.

Actually, I do agree with one of your previous comments, that the topic "The Father Gave" was a good topic of study.   But to be honest I initially voice my comments concerning the quote attributed to EGW, so it is very much about EGW’s quote.

"Soon I saw Him [Jesus] approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father... Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a lovliness which words cannot describe. He then made know to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; THAT HE HAD BEEN PLEADING WITH THE FATHER, and had obtained PERMISSION to give His own life as a ransom for the race..."(Early Writings p.126)

When I say this is not in the bible, I'm saying that the idea or the thought itself is not there, but I don't think you agree. Even though also say its not in the bible, you seem to agree with it.

I think for anyone knowing that some is being spoken outside of that word of God, and yet receive it as the Word of God by saying God gave it in some other context is indeed rationalizing and justifying whatever is being said.

People must be able to distinguish between EGW's opinions, and any spiritual edification that is given.  Maybe most SDA may not be able to do that because like you, they have put their faith in her and the SOP.  Therefore they must justify her word because in doing so they justify themselves.

HOW CAN ANYONE KNOW WHAT SHE IS SAYING IS TRUE? I'll tell you how I know it is not.  The bible says this;

One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Deuteronomy 19:15

This is the principle, a matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.  Sister White has no witnesses; the prophets doesn't speak of it, nor the Psalms or the Gospels.  Just look at what Jesus said about himself.

Jesus said to them, "These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms." Luke 24:44

If you find the any witnesses, she have correctly spoken. If not then; this is just her opinion or her own words.  

Peace


Gene: "Now I never suggested that God did not have feelings, but we don’t know and I’m sure cannot understand the magnitude of Father feelings in giving the Son; maybe this is why God doesn’t even begin to open that channel up for us. Certainly we can’t compare our own feel with those of God."

Gene: "Actually, I do agree with one of your previous comments, that the topic "The Father Gave" was a good topic of study. But to be honest I initially voice my comments concerning the quote attributed to EGW, so it is very much about EGW’s quote."



No... We can't compare but on a lesser degree we can relate from the example of Abraham and Isaac. As far as opening up a channel to what took place, I say a channel has been opened through the writings of EGW.
But I understand if you don't believe that, I was just pointing out the way you were framing your disagreement with EGW's quote was wrong, the pleading she is talking about wasn't about getting GOD to finally agree to give HIS Son..
Your right GOD never thought about holding back HIS Son, but I just say when sin came into the world and HIM moving forward with HIS in giving Him to die for us, it cause GOD to have feelings. Something we can relate to on a lesser level from the example of Abraham and Isaac. I believe this is what EGW saw, a LOVE connection faced with the fact that sin entered the world and GOD'S only begotten Son has to die because of it.


In regards to Abraham and Isaac EGW said,


EGW: "Yet none but God could understand how great was the father’s sacrifice in yielding up his son to death;...."




Gene: "When I say this is not in the bible, I'm saying that the idea or the thought itself is not there, but I don't think you agree. Even though also say its not in the bible, you seem to agree with it."



Yes, I believe EGW writings are the SOP, there are many things you can question because many of her visions and writings shows a different view of what was going on. Again, I was just pointing out how you understand what she is saying is wrong.



Gene: "I think for anyone knowing that some is being spoken outside of that word of God, and yet receive it as the Word of God by saying God gave it in some other context is indeed rationalizing and justifying whatever is being said."


Once again I'm just correcting on how you interpreted Jesus "pleading" with the Father. You have taken it and tried making it say something it's not.



Gene:"People must be able to distinguish between EGW's opinions, and any spiritual edification that is given. Maybe most SDA may not be able to do that because like you, they have put their faith in her and the SOP. Therefore they must justify her word because in doing so they justify themselves.
HOW CAN ANYONE KNOW WHAT SHE IS SAYING IS TRUE? I'll tell you how I know it is not. The bible says this;""



May faith is in GOD, and I believe HE Used EGW to give Understanding to HIS church, I don't need to justify anything, it's you who has taken what she saw in vision and put your twist to what you think she is saying. I understand your twist, your saying Jesus didn't have to do any "pleading", He didn't have to persuade GOD to give Him up.... I agree with that, as you pointed out from the Bible GOD was always been Ready,Willing, and Able to give HIS Son.
So the pleading EGW is talking about is not GOD denying to give Jesus to die for us and Jesus having to plead until HE changed HIS Mind. That's what you are making sound like.. EGW never said that.


If you want to keep discussions with the Bible only that's fine, I'm still waiting for a response on our discussion about the 1000 years.



Blessings!!

Reasoning,

So the pleading EGW is talking about is not GOD denying to give Jesus to die for us and Jesus having to plead until HE changed HIS Mind. That's what you are making sound like.. EGW never said that.

I don’t know what you and EGW’s definition of pleading is, but maybe you should consult a dictionary.  The “vision” shows the Son going to the Father three time and the finally…

and the third time he came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a lovliness which words cannot describe. He then made know to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; THAT HE HAD BEEN PLEADING WITH THE FATHER, and had obtained PERMISSION to give His own life as a ransom for the race..."

If you want to keep discussions with the Bible only that's fine…??? Should I not be using the bible?

God was testing Abraham faithfulness, and obedience to Him.  If Abraham could give his only seed a God that no one else worshipped, then God could use him for His purpose.

16Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?…

I read once a book that pointed out that if it had not been for Abraham and his family, Isaac and Jacob the knowledge of the true God would have been lost to the ancient world.

EGW: "Yet none but God could understand how great was the father’s sacrifice in yielding up his son to death;....

Only God can understand all our human concerns and emotions.  God was testing Abraham’s love for Him.  God could give Abraham another son, and Abraham knew that because of God’s promise.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; 2And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;…

Hebrews 11:8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

I'm still waiting for a response on our discussion about the 1000 years. OK but I’ll have to recall where we left off. This is one of the most beautiful visions in the bible!

Peace


Yes Gene, we should always use our Bible, but EGW visions are something SDA believe we're given to her from GOD. Again, I agree with you, GOD didn't need to be talked into by HIS To give HIS Son. GOD didn't need HIS Mind changed to give HIS only begotten Son.
But you have taken EGW quote and added your thoughts to imply that is what she was saying. Now if you want question what she believed in this regards then you can't build something on one quote, it should be something else from all her writings to back your belief on what she meant.



Gene: "God was testing Abraham faithfulness, and obedience to Him. If Abraham could give his only seed a God that no one else worshipped, then God could use him for His purpose.
I read once a book that pointed out that if it had not been for Abraham and his family, Isaac and Jacob the knowledge of the true God would have been lost to the ancient world."



In talking about EGW quote and what might have been going on with Jesus being shut in 3 times, I was saying with sin coming into the world and what was going on in that enshrouded light with GOD and Jesus, it can be related to what Abraham went through when he had to give his son, the love he had and showed Isaac, the love Isaac had and showed Abraham... of course GOD and Jesus' Love is on a much higher level, but we can relate. That's why I say GOD has feelings too, and what was going on in that enshrouded light is something only a Father giving his son to die can truly deeply relate to.


Blessings!

But in real terms, who initiated it? What were some of the mechanics behind the Father actually giving and sending forth His Son? For those that accept the words of Ellen White there is some striking clarity on this matter.

Hello Stewart. In my humble (or less than humble,) opinion it is a question that is beyond human understanding. Ellen White seeks to fill in the blanks, but she is overstepping her role as a human I doing this. We are unaware of how God made his decision to save humanity other than it was motivated by love. (For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.)

Can we as mere mortals truly understand the inner workings of Gods mind? I think no. We can relate to his great love for us and know that he values us highly and did not wish to see us perish. Since God knows the future we do know that prior to our existence he knew he was going to save us. And he under duress sacrificed his son for us; that is sufficient knowledge for me.

Leon

Leon yes I agree that understanding the mind of God is not something that we are able to. So God has given us some hints about the Subject one being Abraham and Isaac. 

Because you condemn EGW as a false Prophet I will not suggest any of her writings. 

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