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I have been looking at supposed SDA online sites. Unfortunately I am getting more and more confused with who is who..now I find this guy teaching a 2520 prophecy..and yep..by all accounts he is an SDA layman.

How many more are amongst us? Do you ever think you are reading an SDA site when in fact it's not of our teaching?

 

A Review of Jeff Pippenger’s teachings - Norman McNulty, M.D.

 

 

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Since this discussion is the top search result on Google for the term "Jeff Pippenger", we have seen a 'round up the troops' movement of Pippenger supporters.  They come here to defend beliefs which the Seventh-day Adventist Church has found to be baseless.  Beliefs which have lead these same supporters of Jeff Pippenger to leave the Seventh-day Adventist Church.  This is a web site for Seventh-day Adventists by Seventh-day Adventists.  Each new member must answer "Yes" to the following question to create a profile here:  "Do you agree to uphold the principles and beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church in your conduct on this site and follow the Site Rules & Guidelines?"

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Mark do the 1843 and 1850 charts have a "key of explanation" that went with them?  I don't recall that!

You must really slow down and read the quotes again because I think you overlooked some serious points and downplayed some very inspired SOP quotes about Uriah Smith's book.  You are ridiculing God by downplaying the book He himself endorsed as His helping hand with it's one mistake about Turkey!

Are you calling God a liar?

Mark said, "None of those quotes say what you really wish they were saying.

In regards to the first two quotes, it is referring to the 1843 and 1850 Charts, nowhere does it mention that it is the 1863 Chart,.."

Mark, you are wrong. The quotes were written in 1868 and 1870, the two charts referred to are James White's charts, the 1863 prophecy chart and the 10 Commandments chart. You are suggesting that they were distributing charts that referred to Christ's return in 1843? That is foolishness. You are following your own reasoning rather than accepting what is plainly stated.

Mark said, "Again, she does not say the book is infallible, she is saying that those interested in the truth for this time, this book will be an invaluable help, she does not say that the book is the truth for this time, they are two different meanings."

Perhaps you didn't read what was in bold type:

"The great, essential questions which God would have presented to the people are found in Daniel and the Revelation. There is found solid, eternal truth for this time. Everyone needs the light and information it contains." Ms 174, 1899

You respond by quoting what Ellen White said about the Biblical books of Daniel and Revelation rather than what she said about Uriah Smith's book. Again using man's reasoning rather than accepting what Sis. White wrote.

For those who did not go through the Millerite experience she specifically recommends this book 

No-one apart from you has suggested that it is an infallible book however, you do appear to be suggesting that Ellen White was wrong to endorse the book as being "truth for this time".

Mark, you appear to be calling God a liar.

John my brother

I read the quote about Daniel and Revelation, and yes there was much truth for their time in that book, but it was not THE truth for their time, meaning that it was not infallible. I have read Uriah Smith's book, and it has given me a great understanding. But there are many errors in his book which we can understand better today. For historical content, it is invaluable, but it is not THE truth for our time.

And in regards to the charts, even if it is not referring to the 1843 and 1850 charts, it still doesn't give God's endorsement, it doesn't say that God's hand was in the publishment of them, it doesn't say they are a fulfillment of prophecy.

It is not wrong for her to sell the 1863 Chart, there are no lies on it, it is just missing much truth. And as for selling the 1843 Chart being wrong, it is part of our history, it needs to be understood. The 1850 Chart cannot be fully understood without the history of the 1843 Chart, hence they both go together.

The Advent movement of 1840-44 was a glorious manifestation of the power of God; the first angel's message was carried to every missionary station in the world, and in some countries there was the greatest religious interest which has been witnessed in any land since the Reformation of the sixteenth century; but these are to be far exceeded by the mighty movement under the last warning of the third angel.  {GC88 610.3}

So please tell me my brother, is she lying?

The warning has come: Nothing is to be allowed to come in that will disturb the foundation of the faith upon which we have been building ever since the message came in 1842, 1843, and 1844. I was in this message, and ever since I have been standing before the world, true to the light that God has given us. We do not propose to take our feet off the platform on which they were placed as day by day we sought the Lord with earnest prayer, seeking for light. Do you think that I could give up the light that God has given me? It is to be as the Rock of Ages. It has been guiding me ever since it was given. Brethren and sisters, God lives and reigns and works today. His hand is on the wheel, and in His providence He is turning the wheel in accordance with His own will. Let not men fasten themselves to documents, saying what they will do and what they will not do. Let them fasten themselves to the Lord God of heaven. Then the light of heaven will shine into the soul-temple, and we shall see the salvation of God.  {GCB, April 6, 1903 par. 35}

 

Blessed are the eyes which saw the things that were seen in 1843 and 1844. The message was given. And there should be no delay in repeating the message, for the signs of the times are fulfilling; the closing work must be done. A great work will be done in a short time. A message will soon be given by God's appointment that will swell into a loud cry. Then Daniel will stand in his lot, to give his testimony.  {2MR 20.1} 

 

  All the messages given from 1840-1844 are to be made forcible now, for there are many people who have lost their bearings. The messages are to go to all the churches.  {21MR 437.1} 

Read the story of the Midnight Cry, even after they discarded the 1843 Chart after the spring of 1844, they still taught the 2520, it was one of the 5 subjects in which they used to confirm the truth, hence the 1850 Chart confirmed their message after 1844.

But you are saying it is all a delusion, that Sister White is lying, and that we have a faulty God who changes His mind!

Mark said, "But you are saying it is all a delusion, that Sister White is lying, and that we have a faulty God who changes His mind!"

No, I'm saying that you have got it wrong. You don't understand the purpose of the charts, neither do you understand the progression of truth that attended the formation and development of the SDA Church. That much is apparent by your responses. The quotes that you give are not to the point because you do not understand what you are arguing. The supposed "2520 prophecy" was used to bolster Daniel 8:14. The chart was made to visually explain the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation and Daniel 8:14 took a central place. It was the understanding of the 2300-day prophecy that was part of the foundation. Withdrawing the "2520 prophecy" does not affect the understanding of the 2300-day prophecy as it was the explanation of what was to happen and the relation of the seventy weeks to the 2300 days that was the central point.

There were errors on the charts that were corrected in later charts. If one holds that everything on the charts apart from the mistake in regard to "the year zero" is correct then other problems arise.

For example, what was the date of the battle of Arbela? The 1843 & 1850 charts state 332BC but the actual date is 331BC. It makes no difference to the theology of the charts but it is an error. Similarly, when the "2520 prophecy" is removed from the charts it makes no difference to the theology. It was an error that was removed from the teachings of the SDA Church. That is why sis. White is able to say, 

"The truths given us after the passing of the time in 1844 are just as certain and unchangeable as when the Lord gave them to us in answer to our urgent prayers. The visions that the Lord has given me are so remarkable that we know that what we have accepted is the truth. This was demonstrated by the Holy Spirit. Light, precious light from God, established the main points of our faith as we hold them today." Letter 50, 1906, pp. 1, 2. (To Elder W. W. Simpson, January 30, 1906.)

No light established the supposed 2520 prophecy.

Ellen White said that no changes were to be made except by inspiration so when new charts are produced one would expect "the pen of inspiration" to point out any omissions of essential truth. Yet we find an endorsement of the 1863 chart and even a rebuke to Bro. Haskell in 1908 for reprinting the 1843 chart.

Will you hold that the 666 of Rev.13 refers to the number of years of Rome? Will you declare that the second best of Rev.13 is the Papacy? Both points were taught from the 1843 chart.

You have over-emphasised a minor point and attempt to make an essential truth out of something that was dismissed by the Pioneers. Only when you realise this will you be able to reconcile your position to what SoP says,

"Those who embrace the truth now, who have not shared in the experiences of those who entered the work in the early history of the message, should study the instruction given in Daniel and the Revelation, becoming familiar with the truth it presents."

"The truths given us after the passing of the time in 1844 are just as certain and unchangeable as when the Lord gave them to us in answer to our urgent prayers. The visions that the Lord has given me are so remarkable that we know that what we have accepted is the truth. This was demonstrated by the Holy Spirit. Light, precious light from God, established the main points of our faith as we hold them today."

"Those who will diligently study this book will have no relish for the cheap sentiments presented by those who have a burning desire to get out something new and strange to present to the flock of God. The rebuke of God is upon all such teachers. They need that one teach them what is meant by godliness and truth. The great, essential questions which God would have presented to the people are found in Daniel and the Revelation."

Hi John B

you said "No, I'm saying that you have got it wrong. You don't understand the purpose of the charts, neither do you understand the progression of truth that attended the formation and development of the SDA Church."

Well actually I do understand the purpose of the charts, the 1843 chart was designed to reveal peoples true character.

Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached by William Miller, and servants of God were raised up in the spirit and power of Elijah to proclaim the message. Like John, the forerunner of Jesus, those who preached this solemn message felt compelled to lay the ax at the root of the tree, and call upon men to bring forth fruits meet for repentance. Their testimony was calculated to arouse and powerfully affect the churches and manifest their real character. And as the solemn warning to flee from the wrath to come was sounded, many who were united with the churches received the HEALING MESSAGE; they saw their backslidings, and with bitter tears of repentance and deep agony of soul, humbled themselves before God. And as the Spirit of God rested upon them, they helped to sound the cry, "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come."  {EW 233.1}

Ministers who would not accept this saving message themselves hindered those who would have received it. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven and to persecute William Miller and those who united with him in the work. Falsehoods were circulated to injure his influence; and at different times after he had plainly declared the counsel of God, applying cutting truths to the hearts of his hearers, great rage was kindled against him, and as he left the place of meeting, some waylaid him in order to take his life. But angels of God were sent to protect him, and they led him safely away from the angry mob. His work was not yet finished.  {EW 235}

You mention UNFOLDING OF TRUTH as if truth can be discarded because it is old, to mean that new truth negates the old, but that is not so and can never be, as truth will always be truth!

In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new.{COL 127.4}

It is a healing saving message, it is the Elijah message designed to separate the wheat from the tares, and boy is it doing it's work just as sister White said it would.

The SDA Church when formed had been Laodicea since the late 50's, that is nothing to be proud about. And why do you think that is? Because they rejected the foundations, just as you are doing my friend, you do not wish to return to the Old Paths.

Don't you get it? if you reject it you reject the only remedy to save you, and in essence you destroy yourself.

Think about it and pray. Read Jeremiah 17:9 and stop trusting in yourself, read the word and trust in it, it is our only hope.

Mark, once again you give evidence to the fact that you really do not understand.

The supposed "2520 prophecy" was not the healing message, the "2520" was only a supposition that was used to shore up the 2300 days. A shoring that it did not need. The healing message that came was the entire message that pointed men to Christ and the salvation of the cross.

 

Mark said, "You mention UNFOLDING OF TRUTH as if truth can be discarded because it is old, to mean that new truth negates the old, but that is not so and can never be, as truth will always be truth!"

 

Well, actually, it is you who is using that phrase, not me. Why did you write that? I mean, I stand corrected if you can show me where I used that phrase but as far as I can see you are using the phrase and then pretending that I said it in order to counter the argument that you claim I am making. That seems very dishonest.

Why invent something to respond to whilst at the same time totally ignoring all the points that I actually queried?

The development of truth can be seen in the doctrines of the SDA Church particularly in comparison with the doctrines of the Millerites. The doctrinal development shows the development of the understanding of the truth.

 

In 1843 the charts were used to point to the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. Was that the truth? No. Only part of what was said was actually true. By the time of the SDA Church there was a development of the truth and it was realised that the event was wrong.

The 1843 chart was used to describe Rome as the second beast of Revelation 13. Was that the truth? No. But there was an development of truth so that the USA would be identified.

The 1843 chart was used to show that the "666" of Rev.13 denoted the number of years that pagan Rome would hold sway over Israel. Was that the truth? No. There was an development of truth and that understanding was changed and it was declared that "Republicanism and Protestantism" was the true meaning of "666". However, there was a further understanding of the truth to come in order that the Papacy would be identified as "666".

What about Sabbath-keeping? The Millerites rejected Sabbath-keeping. They stuck to Sunday. Was this truth? Were they right? Or was there an "unfolding of truth" that led to acceptance of the true seventh-day Sabbath?

 

You claim that the "2520" is "designed to separate the wheat from the tares". It is not. That is a false doctrine.

You claim that it is "the only remedy". It is not. Jesus Christ is the only remedy. You cannot produce one scriptural quote that states that "the 2520" is a remedy or designed to perform the task that the Bible says the angels perform at the end of the world.

You say that the SDA Church became Laodicea in the 1950's, yet that has nothing to do with "the 2520". That theory was discarded at the very inception of the SDA Church, ninety years earlier. So the rejection of that supposed prophecy has nothing to do with your claim.

 

Are you able to state precisely why the supposed "2520 prophecy" is an essential truth? This question was asked at the very start of these discussions and in all the thousands of words that you have copy-pasted on this subject not once have you been able to justify this claim.

You make bold claims but when put to the test they disappear in replies that consist of obfuscation, irrelevance and blatant ignorance of the topic. 

 

It is becoming very obvious that you have been questioned in relation to specifics of the charts several times yet you have studiously ignored questions to the point where you prefer to answer questions that have not been asked.

If we must believe that everything written on the 1843 chart is corect then please answer the points that I have raised. If, however, the chart is not to be taken as infallible then why so much emphasis on "the 2520" when it is only a side issue (literally)? 

 

"The truths given us after the passing of the time in 1844 are just as certain and unchangeable as when the Lord gave them to us in answer to our urgent prayers. The visions that the Lord has given me are so remarkable that we know that what we have accepted is the truth. This was demonstrated by the Holy Spirit. Light, precious light from God, established the main points of our faith as we hold them today." 

John B my brother

I'll state again what you said "neither do you understand the progression of truth that attended the formation and development of the SDA Church."

By this inference you are saying that earlier truth is replaced by newer truths, and if not you have to excuse me, but there was no other option for me to believe that this is what you meant.

You go on to say 

"In 1843 the charts were used to point to the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. Was that the truth? No. Only part of what was said was actually true. By the time of the SDA Church there was a development of the truth and it was realised that the event was wrong."

Actually it wasn't wrong at all, Jesus Christ did come to the earth as much as if he had actually come in the flesh, and this is what we as a people fail to understand as much as they did then.

He came as a type of the early and latter rain, this experience is the experience that we as Adventists fail to understand today, just as the Millerite's and the Jews before them failed to understand.

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, . . . that there should be time no longer. Revelation 10:5, 6. {CTr 344.1}

The mighty Angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part that He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy has waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. . . . {CTr 344.2}

Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


Biblical history is given for us at the end of the world, because we are the fulfillment of ALL prophecy, we are the people who know not the time of our visitation, the Sunday Law is the destruction that Christ was looking down the ages towards when He wept over Jerusalem.

The Millerites did not understand the sanctuary properly, that is why the Angel said to Zechariah in reference to the Golden Candlesticks "knowest thou not what these be?" Zechariah was a priest, i think he knew fine well what the candlesticks were, but he was playing the part of God's people at the end of time, beginning with the Millerite movement. They did not understand the sanctuary. The Mistake on the 1843 chart was the misunderstanding of the Tarrying Time, nothing to do with adding any year zero, the truths on the chart were the prophecies, which were not wrong.

Again you said

"The 1843 chart was used to describe Rome as the second beast of Revelation 13. Was that the truth? No. But there was an development of truth so that the USA would be identified."

Where do you get your information, nowhere is this stated on either 1843 or 1850 Chart, have you even looked at the 1843 chart?

You said again

"The 1843 chart was used to show that the "666" of Rev.13 denoted the number of years that pagan Rome would hold sway over Israel."

Again, where did you imagine this in connection with the 1843 chart?

Miller may have later stated these things, but they were never preached from 1798-1844, and have no connection with the charts.

Again you said

"What about Sabbath-keeping? The Millerites rejected Sabbath-keeping."

Ellen White and all the other 50 or so people who entered into the Most Holy place by faith on Oct 22 1844 were Millerites, the other 50,000 left or denied their faith. Miller was being led astray by others, he was blind, and was mentally and physically exhausted from faithfully serving our God for the best part of 30 years, and you accuse him?

My attention was then called to William Miller. He looked perplexed and was bowed with anxiety and distress for his people. The company who had been united and loving in 1844 were losing their love, opposing one another, and falling into a cold, backslidden state. As he beheld this, grief wasted his strength. I saw leading men watching him, and fearing lest he should receive the third angel's message and the commandments of God. And as he would lean toward the light from heaven, these men would lay some plan to draw his mind away. A human influence was exerted to keep him in darkness and to retain his influence among those who opposed the truth. At length William Miller raised his voice against the light from heaven. He failed in not receiving the message which would have fully explained his disappointment and cast a light and glory on the past, which would have revived his exhausted energies, brightened his hope, and led him to glorify God. He leaned to human wisdom instead of divine, but being broken with arduous labor in his Master's cause and by age, he was not as accountable as those who kept him from the truth. They are responsible; the sin rests upon them.  {EW 257.1} 

 If William Miller could have seen the light of the third message, many things which looked dark and mysterious to him would have been explained. But his brethren professed so deep love and interest for him, that he thought he could not tear away from them. His heart would incline toward the truth, and then he looked at his brethren; they opposed it. Could he tear away from those who had stood side by side with him in proclaiming the coming of Jesus? He thought they surely would not lead him astray.  {EW 258.1} 

God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan, the dominion of death, and hid him in the grave from those who were constantly drawing him from the truth. Moses erred as he was about to enter the Promised Land. So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump. {EW 258.2}

I would think carefully about what claims you think to make against God's servant.

 

You said

"You claim that the "2520" is "designed to separate the wheat from the tares". It is not. That is a false doctrine."

The 2520 is Christ, He is Palmoni, the Wonderful Numberer, He is the word, and the 2520 is the complete vision of prophetic history, it is the Rock of Ages.

The 1850 Chart symbolises the 3rd Angels message, of which the 2520 is a part. And the 3rd Angels message is what separates the Wheat from the Tares, so it is a correct doctrine and is doing its work as foretold since before the foundation of the world.

Again you said 

"You claim that it is "the only remedy". It is not. Jesus Christ is the only remedy. You cannot produce one scriptural quote that states that "the 2520" is a remedy or designed to perform the task that the Bible says the angels perform at the end of the world."

Angels?? It is referring to the 3 angels messages, not literal angels, as you cannot have a third message without a first and second.

 I then saw the third angel [Revelation 14:9-11]. Said my accompanying angel, "Fearful is his work. Awful is his mission. He is the angel that is to select the wheat from the tares and seal, or bind, the wheat for the heavenly garner. These things should engross the whole mind, the whole attention."--EW 118 (1854).  {LDE 14.2

It is the acceptance or rejection of the 3rd Angels message that determines whether you will be saved, as to reject it, is to reject and crucify Christ as they did on Oct 22 1844 when they said the message was a delusion.

Again you said.

"You say that the SDA Church became Laodicea in the 1950's, yet that has nothing to do with "the 2520". That theory was discarded at the very inception of the SDA Church, ninety years earlier. So the rejection of that supposed prophecy has nothing to do with your claim."

It seems I made a typo, if I said 1950, I meant to say 1850, and it has everything to do with the 2520!

 

You said

"Are you able to state precisely why the supposed "2520 prophecy" is an essential truth? This question was asked at the very start of these discussions and in all the thousands of words that you have copy-pasted on this subject not once have you been able to justify this claim."

I don't need to justify anything, just as you don't need to believe anything, we will all stand before God for what we have accepted or rejected. The SOP is very plain, from a God that cannot lie, a God that said the charts were published and directed by Him, that were a fulfillment of a prophecy, that tells us the vision will not lie. The word Vision is Chazon, it is the complete vision, referring to the 2520 from Daniel Ch's 8-10. The Vision (Chazon) was to be made plain upon Tables, which Ellen White tells us is the truth. We cannot therefore talk about the battle of Arbela and justify that the vision put upon the tables is incorrect, because God cannot lie. The battle of Arbela is a date in history, not a prophecy, and not the commencement of the chain of truth that was given to William Miller by Gabriel the Angel.

You said

"You make bold claims but when put to the test they disappear in replies that consist of obfuscation, irrelevance and blatant ignorance of the topic. "

I don't make any bold claims, I just present line upon line, the Word will vindicate Itself as It has done down through the ages. 

 

You said

"It is becoming very obvious that you have been questioned in relation to specifics of the charts several times yet you have studiously ignored questions to the point where you prefer to answer questions that have not been asked."

I have ignored them because it is not worth the effort, you never provide scriptural evidence, just your own opinions or mans theories.

You said

"If we must believe that everything written on the 1843 chart is corect then please answer the points that I have raised. If, however, the chart is not to be taken as infallible then why so much emphasis on "the 2520" when it is only a side issue (literally)? "

My brother, I cannot express how difficult it is for me to answer this question, but please tell me why the path is narrow and FEW will find it, why the tares far outweigh the wheat, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Well, if you think the 2520 is a side issue, I really do fear for you.

This quote below speaks against you, not for you.

 

"The truths given us after the passing of the time in 1844 are just as certain and unchangeable as when the Lord gave them to us in answer to our urgent prayers. The visions that the Lord has given me are so remarkable that we know that what we have accepted is the truth. This was demonstrated by the Holy Spirit. Light, precious light from God, established the main points of our faith as we hold them today."

In an attempt to make this legible I have typed my responses and put the post that I am replying to in bold. I have also snipped a lot of irrelevant side-stepping of the issues at hand.

I'll state again what you said "neither do you understand the progression of truth that attended the formation and development of the SDA Church."

That is correct and is confirmed by this response.

By this inference you are saying that earlier truth is replaced by newer truths, and if not you have to excuse me, but there was no other option for me to believe that this is what you meant.

No, I was not inferring anything, I said it plainly, you do not understand the progression of truth that attended the formation and development of the SDA Church. I thought it was a rather simply structured sentence. You equate progression with negation, not me. I do not agree with such an association so please do not go back to your tactic of trying to introduce a straw man argument.

You go on to say 

"In 1843 the charts were used to point to the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. Was that the truth? No. Only part of what was said was actually true. By the time of the SDA Church there was a development of the truth and it was realised that the event was wrong."

Actually it wasn't wrong at all, Jesus Christ did come to the earth as much as if he had actually come in the flesh, and this is what we as a people fail to understand as much as they did then.

It was wrong. They were looking for the personal, bodily return of Jesus Christ – they were wrong. William Miller referred to “1843 after Christ, when captive Zion will go free from all bondage, even from death, and the last enemy conquered, the remnant out of all nations saved, the New Jerusalem completed, the saints glorified.” (Miller’s Works Vol. 1, p.45) Read what he believed for yourself, the Millerites taught the physical return of Christ to this earth.

[snip obfuscation]

The Mistake on the 1843 chart was the misunderstanding of the Tarrying Time, nothing to do with adding any year zero, the truths on the chart were the prophecies, which were not wrong.

In fact it was all to do with not adding a year zero. Miller was doing a lot of calculation by subtraction and failed to take into account that this would give a false result – that was how he got to 1843. When the Karaite calendar was used there was no year zero involved and so the correct year(s) could be calculated whether by subtraction or not.

Again you said

"The 1843 chart was used to describe Rome as the second beast of Revelation 13. Was that the truth? No. But there was an development of truth so that the USA would be identified."

Where do you get your information, nowhere is this stated on either 1843 or 1850 Chart, have you even looked at the 1843 chart?

Yes. “In the 11th verse he gives us a discovery of the same beast in his ecclesiastical power; Pagan Rome in the first beast, and Papacy in the image beast; and it will be evident to any one who will examine the chapter carefully, that John was not commanded to number the image beast--for the civil power of that beast was before numbered in the 5th verse,--but the beast which existed before him, which the Papal ecclesiastical beast is an image of, or Daniel's daily sacrifice abomination, (Dan. xii. 11,) the one which Paul said, "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." “ (Evidences From Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the Year A. D. 1843, and of His Personal Reign of 1000 Years by William Miller, pub.1842). The idea of the USA as the second beast was introduced in the 1850 chart.

You said again

"The 1843 chart was used to show that the "666" of Rev.13 denoted the number of years that pagan Rome would hold sway over Israel."

Again, where did you imagine this in connection with the 1843 chart?

There is a date on the chart: 158BC. Why is that date there? (rhetorical question - see below)

Miller may have later stated these things, but they were never preached from 1798-1844, and have no connection with the charts.

 “Again, from the league between the Jews and Romans, B. C. 158, to the fall of idolatry in the west, A. D. 508 666” (The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ About A.D. 1843 Josiah Litch, pub.1838, p.118)

The truth is the interpretation of the verse given by Mr M that the number of his name 666 denotes the duration of Pagan Rome is a most farfetched and improbable supposition and can in no way be reconciled with truth Were the date of its commencement given by Mr M viz 158 correct still the end would fall at the wrong time for Pagan Rome ceased not in 508 but nearly two hundred years before at the conversion to Christianity of the emperor Constantine the Great or at the latest at the death of Julian the apostate in 363.” (An Exposition of the Prophecies, Supposed by William Miller to Predict the Second Coming of Christ in 1843 by John Dowling, p.143, pub.1840)

 “Here ends the description of the first beast in the fourth kingdom, which John informs us in Rev. 13:18, he saw numbered, and his number is six hundred three score and six," which I understand to mean the years that this beast; or pagan Rome should contaminate the Jewish and Christian religion, break in pieces and devour with his "great iron teeth," the same. If this be a correct exposition of the text: then this beast began his power over the people God, 158 years before Christ and would end 508 years after Christ: so that we are brought down to A. D. 508.” (Evidences From Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the Year A. D. 1843, and of His Personal Reign of 1000 Years, page 25, pub.1842)

This text shows the number of years that Rome would exist under the blasphemous head of Paganism, after it was connected with the people of God by league, beginning B. C. 158, add 666 years, will bring us to A. D. 508, when the daily was taken away.” (Synopsis of Miller's Views, Signs of the Times, 25th January 1843)

This view was preached by Miller in his lectures and in his lectures he used the chart. The 158BC date is related to 508AD to prove the 666 years of Pagan Rome. In fact he was wrong as from 158BC to 508AD is actually 665 years.

Again you said

"What about Sabbath-keeping? The Millerites rejected Sabbath-keeping."

Ellen White and all the other 50 or so people who entered into the Most Holy place by faith on Oct 22 1844 were Millerites, the other 50,000 left or denied their faith. Miller was being led astray by others, he was blind, and was mentally and physically exhausted from faithfully serving our God for the best part of 30 years, and you accuse him?

No, I did not accuse him. Read what I said again and perhaps you will respond to what I actually wrote instead of continually making these baseless accusations as an excuse for not answering. I’m really not impressed by your constant attempts to evade questions asked by reshaping them to suit your response.

Beginning about 1832, soon after the publishing of his first book on prophecy, Begg began the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath. His espousal of the Sabbath and his personal observance of it thereafter until his death; his contact with the Millerite Signs of the Times  in 1840, just after it was started; his offer of articles on the continuing obligation of the seventhday Sabbath, which they declined;” – Froom, 3,II, p.561 (ref. to James A. Begg of Paisley.)

[snip irrelevant obfuscation]

You said

"You claim that the "2520" is "designed to separate the wheat from the tares". It is not. That is a false doctrine."

The 2520 is Christ, etc., etc

No, “the 2520” was thought to be a time prophecy. It isn’t. That is why it was not adopted by the SDA Church and refuted by the pioneers.

You said

"Are you able to state precisely why the supposed "2520 prophecy" is an essential truth? This question was asked at the very start of these discussions and in all the thousands of words that you have copy-pasted on this subject not once have you been able to justify this claim."

I don't need to justify anything

Mark, the plain truth is that you can’t justify this claim. Nobody has been able to. It remains a “you must believe it because I said so”.

We cannot therefore talk about the battle of Arbela and justify that the vision put upon the tables is incorrect, because God cannot lie. The battle of Arbela is a date in history, not a prophecy, and not the commencement of the chain of truth that was given to William Miller by Gabriel the Angel.

Mark, it is a historical fact that the Battle of Arbela took place in 331BC and is mentioned specifically on the 1843 and 1850 charts as having taken place in 332BC. Either the charts are wrong or history is. Which is it?

You said

"You make bold claims but when put to the test they disappear in replies that consist of obfuscation, irrelevance and blatant ignorance of the topic. "

I don't make any bold claims, I just present line upon line, the Word will vindicate Itself as It has done down through the ages. 

That last part is correct – that is why we know that “the 2520” is not a prophecy and that is why the SDA Church has never believed or taught it.

[snip excuse for not addressing objections]

You said

"If we must believe that everything written on the 1843 chart is corect then please answer the points that I have raised. If, however, the chart is not to be taken as infallible then why so much emphasis on "the 2520" when it is only a side issue (literally)? "

My brother, I cannot express how difficult it is for me to answer this question, but please tell me

Why don’t you answer my question before you attempt to divert off to an unrelated subject? Let me see if I can make it easier for you. Apart from the “no year zero” problem, is everything else on the charts correct or not? (You only need to answer “yes” or “no” – it is that simple.)

This is funny Mark, I showed you many weeks ago that Ellen White said that all should have the charts from 1863 that have the TRUTH which included the 10 commandments.

You might choose to forget the Truth that is shared to you but God does not forget what you reject.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING BROTHER MARK

GO Ahead brother we need to go deep with both parties facts

Would you Stop arguing with the other Party and Follow your friend Obert's Advice,remember he said they will join as to disturb and change focus.

At first I thought Obert was also joining and changing focus but I can see it Now!

ALL OF YOU HERE ARE TAKING THESE ARGUMENTS LIKE PERSONAL ISSUES PLEASE WOULD YOU BE CHRISTLIKE!

IT'S A SUGGESTION NOT A COMMAND

THANK YOU

I would like to point you to these references made by Sister White to Elder Simpson.

Elder Simpson presents the truth as it was presented in past years, illustrating his remarks by means of many charts. He explains the prophecies very clearly, showing plainly that the end of all things is at hand. The Lord certainly works with him, and I wish that there were hundreds of such workers in the field, proclaiming with the same earnestness and enthusiasm the last message of warning.  {RH, March 2, 1905 par. 9}  

Brother Simpson dwells especially on the significance of the prophecies in the books of Daniel and the Revelation. By means of ingeniously contrived charts and symbolic representations, he holds the attention of the people, while he endeavors to preach the word. Through this effort hundreds will be led to a better understanding of the Bible than they ever had before, and we trust that there will be many conversions. Those who attend his lectures and are not converted, must practically reject the Word of God.  {RH, November 29, 1906 par. 17} 

He developed his own flip chart in 1889 which he used to great success. He also used lifelike models of the beasts of Daniel 7.

It is worthy to note that when He died, in his will, apart from the flip chart he had produced, the only other chart was an 1843 chart.

Attachments:

Thank you, Mark. That is my point. When you compare W.W. Simpson's chart to the 1863 chart you can see that they are almost the same. The arrangement being slightly different and the dates 457 & 1844 are not on Simpson's chart but principally they are the same.

In her letter of 1902 she states, "Brother Simpson makes clear and plain the positions that we have held for so many years." She endorsed the 1863 chart and Simpson's chart - neither included 2520.

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