I have been looking at supposed SDA online sites. Unfortunately I am getting more and more confused with who is who..now I find this guy teaching a 2520 prophecy..and yep..by all accounts he is an SDA layman.
How many more are amongst us? Do you ever think you are reading an SDA site when in fact it's not of our teaching?
*** Adventist Online Admin Note ***
Since this discussion is the top search result on Google for the term "Jeff Pippenger", we have seen a 'round up the troops' movement of Pippenger supporters. They come here to defend beliefs which the Seventh-day Adventist Church has found to be baseless. Beliefs which have lead these same supporters of Jeff Pippenger to leave the Seventh-day Adventist Church. This is a web site for Seventh-day Adventists by Seventh-day Adventists. Each new member must answer "Yes" to the following question to create a profile here: "Do you agree to uphold the principles and beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church in your conduct on this site and follow the Site Rules & Guidelines?"
Our Site Rules & Guidelines includes the following rule:
12. This is a site by Seventh-day Adventists for Seventh-day Adventists. We welcome all seekers of God's truth here. We believe that God will continue to reveal His truth to His people as time progresses. Thus we are constantly seeking a better understanding of God and His word. We welcome all that are doing the same. That said, if it becomes apparent that your purpose in being a member of this site is to promote a different agenda and/or sow discord among the brethren, your ability to interact with this site may be restricted.
We ask that all members uphold the pledge they made when joining this site.
Thank you for your comments. Perhaps I can share some of my thoughts on what you wrote. It is pretty clear when you look at the writings of Miller and his associates that they understood the 2520 as a central pillar to their time prophecies. In fact they did claim that the 2520 and the 2300 must be understood together. One prophecy, the 2300, has to do with the cleansing of the sanctuary, the other, the 2520, has to do with the gathering of a denominated people. One prophecy would lose power without the other. What good is a sanctuary without people, and how can God have a people on earth without the redemption process displayed through the sanctuary? I recommend to you, and to others who are reading this, to not go to Pippenger, the Conference or other sources to understand what William Miller wrote, but instead to William Miller himself. Who better to explain his views than the man who wrote them. In fact they are readily available online. The reason I say that is because William Miller addresses the vast majority of criticism people have with the 2520. In fact, most of the arguments used today are the same arguments that were used in Miller's time against him. If you think Miller came to understand the 2520 because of a "misapplied adverb", then you are mistaken, because that is not how Miller came to understand the 2520. He came to understand it by the context of Lev 25 and the Sabbaths portrayed there. He was so aware of the cycle of seven and all the Sabbaths that it made sense to him that the breaking of the covenant would also be a cycle of sevens.
I agree, the Millerites were wrong on certain things, but that does not give us permission to cast out all their beliefs. Especially when our prophet has claimed that the beliefs uncovered in 1840-44 were "to be as the Rock of Ages." While you are correct, EGW does not openly support the 2520, she also does not openly deny it. Simply no mention of it whatsoever. This is interesting because Ellen White most certainly was aware of what the 2520 prophecy was, she had to know because every single Millerite preacher taught it and because her husband and other pioneers referenced it many times. If it was so wrong and dangerous, why didnt she just condemn it and save our people such fuss. Also, do you judge legitimacy of prophecies on whether or not they appear in the Great Controversy? Then the 1290 or 1335 must not be important to you at all.
Again, I don't understand how the 2520 gets in the way of our commission. I have listened to Pippenger a lot. He has been wrong on things and has admitted on being wrong. In almost every presentation he gives he always says that it is our responsibility to understand these things for ourselves and not to rely on him. It's funny because all these beliefs are taken as something that Pippenger invented, but all he did was bring out two charts and explain the prophecies on them and it caused a huge uproar. The reason that is so is because the beliefs at our foundation are so starkly contrasted with the beliefs held today. Specifically concerning the daily, the trumpets, the latter rain, the role of Islam and other beliefs. I think you imply that we blindly follow Pippenger because we are outcasts already in the SDA church. I could not disagree more with that statement. In fact, from our point of view, it appears that you and all who fight this are just blindly following whatever the conference says, much in the same way that the laymen took the priests' word for it during the dark ages. I am sorry someone told you that you are a heretic for not believing, that was wrong. But are you to condemn these things because of the actions of one our a group of people? That is such a strawman defense and it does not seem right to me. It is as if a man rejected being a Seventh Day Adventist because one day he ran into a Seventh Day Adventist who told him he would go to hell if he didn't observe the seventh day Sabbath. While there is truth to the Adventist's statement, it was not worded the correct way and it caused a man to reject everything simply because he was told something that he didn't want to hear and did not conform to what he thought the truth was. I believe that is what many people do to the messages that Pippenger shares. The 2520 is one of the more volatile beliefs, and people dont want to hear the other things he has to say because they heard from someone who heard from someone else who heard from their pastor that Pippenger is nuts. In fact, the 2520 was never the main emphasis of what Pippenger has been teaching for the last 15 years or so. His main point has always been that the early rain is falling, that the latter rain is coming soon, and that the judgement of the living has began. What a shame for an Adventist to not pay attention to those much more striking claims because of confusion over the 2520
Well I can simply say that you have been really following, but all what you said is FALSE to them because they DON'T know in which year was the foundations of what they are today were laid by God?
Once again Thank you Brother Jackson for defending the Present Truth.
you call this 'present truth' ?
I do consider information concerning the latter rain and the judgment of the living as present truth. What is your present truth? Giving the same bible studies on Daniel over and over again and stop at Daniel 9 because you can't explain the rest of it in any way that makes sense? It is frustrating for us to hear people rashly deny the information concerning our beliefs of Daniel 11 and the 3 woes with the argument "well, we can't tell you what this means, but we do know you are wrong." And to disfellowship people from our churches because of this? When our universities are teaching evolution, supporting homosexuality, and teaching spiritual formation, it is the people who are proclaiming the truths that formed our very church that need to be so swiftly dealt with? If you believe the Conference has found present truth, maybe you can explain why our churches are quite literally celebrating the fact that we have been "wondering the desert" for 150 years now. I wonder if it is an accident that in all the periods of reform in God's church, he always points them back to their beginnings? Surely that is too farfetched to happen again to a modern group and its beginnings, right? It is sad to me to see those who fight this message perfectly fulfill the attitude of the Jews when Christ was with them. Because their minds were so convinced of their own views of prophecy, they refused to believe John the Baptist and eventually Christ. I am sure John and Christ's followers were labeled as fringe members who only could get attention by ranting about their crazy ideas. In fact, if you notice, God's people are always a small minority, not only in the world, but also within the church.
"What is your present truth? Giving the same bible studies on Daniel over and over again and stop at Daniel 9 because you can't explain the rest of it in any way that makes sense?"
You know Jackson what is so sad about what you just said is that you guys put all SDA's in the same box as though we are all ignorant of the Bible just because we don't believe in the 2520! I have studied the whole books of Daniel and Revelation and understand them perfectly well. Do I undertand them completely and perfectly? Probably not! Nowhere in those 2 books can you find the 2520, unless like Jeff, you do some sort of mathmatical magic and make some numbers fit somewhere. You guys are so critical and condemning. It's like a trademark with this whole group of people.
I have done prison ministries for years and I will tell you plain and simply, just because you guys get bored with the same old simple truths doesn't mean that the rest of the world dying from lack of knowing Christ gets bored with it. These wonderful truths that you are so bored with and need something new and exciting to keep your faith revived, are like words of gold to those living in darkness! Shame on you for downplaying the simple but powerful truths of God's word. Have you ever given a bible study to a man or woman in prison about God doesn't burn you in hell forever? Watch there face light up with that simple but precious message that God loves them so much He would never do that. Show them the clear time prophecies about the judgement! See how bored they look with it. Teach them what the mark of the beast truly is and watch their faces light up and tears roll down their face.
The truth is, you and all the rest in your world probably aren't even living up to the light you have already received so you turn to the church and condemn and judge it because you see your own sins being lived out in others in it Sins you probably practice in your own life so you are quick to see it in others. Wow, wouldn't there be revival and reformation if we would just live up to the simple plain messages we have been given instead of trying to look for something new and strange to fill the void you have.
If only you could truly see yourselves! How shameful!
The lessons that Christ presented in his words of truth are like precious pearls; for in them he bestowed upon men an inestimable possession. Much that he taught is still but dimly understood, and the rubbish of error covers many a glorious gem of truth. These jewels of truth should be searched for with as great diligence as men search for hidden treasure. Those who know the love of Christ should regard it as did the man who found the hidden treasure, and for joy thereof went and sold all that he had, that he might buy the field, and dig over every inch of it to discover the rich veins of gold and silver. The teaching of Christ is more precious than any mine of earth can be, and it demands more zeal on our part to seek for the gems of truth than does any possession we can secure in the world. We should put forth most strenuous efforts to understand the full meaning of the truth he would convey to the mind in parables or maxims. Let him who would comprehend spiritual things, dig deep in the mines of truth. Signs of the Times, November 7,1892.
We should be diligent to dig in the mines of truth for new and precious gems; we should bring forth from the treasure-house of God's word things new and old.
This parable illustrates the value of the heavenly treasure, and the effort that should be made to secure it. The finder of the treasure in the field was ready to part with all that he had, ready to put forth untiring effort, in order to secure the hidden riches. So the finder of heavenly treasure will count no labor too great and no sacrifice too dear in order to gain the treasures of truth. In the parable, the field containing the treasure represents the Holy Scriptures. And the Gospel is the treasure. The man who bought the field searched every part of it to find the treasure he had secured. So we are to take the Word of God and search its pages, that we may find the treasures of truth. It is the Holy Spirit's office to direct and reward this labor. The searcher finds lodes of precious ore, and he sinks the shaft still deeper for still more valuable treasure. The gold fields of earth are not more closely interlaced with veins of precious ore than are the fields of revelation with veins of truth that bring to view the unsearchable riches of God. Many are too well satisfied with the surface truths of revelation. Precious gems are passed by because their value is not seen. Let the Bible student put his mind to the tax as he studies God's Word; for the meaning often lies hidden beneath the surface. The knowledge thus gained will be like heavenly seed planted by the divine Sower. Signs of the Times, September 5, 1906.
Your post reminded me of Romans 10:2. "For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge." I don't doubt your sincerity. I believe you believe you are doing everything you are supposed to be doing as a Seventh Day Adventist. But it is clear from the Spirit of Prophecy that we are supposed to be like Bereans. She says that when we come to understand the books of Daniel and Revelation as we should, there will be seen among us a great revival. You see, it is the understanding and fulfillment of prophecy which creates revival. Ellen White says that the "crowning evidence" of Christ's messiahship, was that he was able to prophecy before time the things that are to come. This is why we as Adventists emphasize prophecy so much. It is good to hear that you are doing ministries and making your best effort. But the things I talk about are not for those who are new to Adventism. My frustration is with the Adventists who have been in the church for years and years and have not progressed in their understanding of prophecy beyond what we teach newcomers, which is a pretty basic understanding. We are to be like Daniel who interpreted prophecy for the king of the world. How can you be satisfied with your understanding? You must always be searching for complete understanding. We are to always grow, and not be content in where we are with God. We all have many sins we need to put away, both our conscious and unconscious sins. I am not condemning those who are ignorant because they are new to the church, I am condemning those people who have been coming to church and do not grow as Christians, either morally or intellectually. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. It seems that we have trouble with this a lot. We are content with the milky sermons we hear because they dont unsettle our hearts to the reality that judgement is coming for us very soon. This is not the time to be satisfied with our walk with Christ. He is coming, and sooner than we think. And we as SDAs are to be judged first! Before the world. That is why this is focused at Seventh Day Adventists, not those in the world. We need to be preparing ourselves for judgement so that after we are sealed, we are able to prophecy to the world. I did not mean to offend you, but I would rather have you angry at me than have you go on believing that everything is just hunky dory and that its ok that Jesus has not come back yet. Jesus is waiting for a people that will finally get their act together and stand in these end times. If Jesus came back right now would you tell Him that you are satisfied with everything and that you do not need to improve? Ellen White is clear that we will all have to stand individually at the end times during the Sunday law and give an explanation of our beliefs. Even for the most knowledgeable people, that is a difficult task. Perhaps you are able to do that, but I am certain that the vast majority of Adventists would not be prepared for such a task. Even if you don't believe that Daniel 4 and 5 are perfect examples of the 2520, it is difficult to deny the fact that Daniel's reference to the "curse written in the book of Moses" is clearly a reference to the only curse described by Moses, that of the curse in Lev 26 which is what the 2520 prophecy is: the curse of breaking the covenant by being scattered. In chapter 9, Daniel even references the last seven verses of Lev 26 and prays the prayer of supplication: the very action required in the last 7 verses of Lev 26 to undo the curse and not be cast away by God. I am sorry you are upset, Lisa, but it is difficult hearing people like you say, "well, I dont know what the 2520 is, and clearly I am not interested in learning anything about it, but let me get in the middle of this discussion and tell you why you are wrong and being judgmental...nevermind the fact that by calling you judgemental, I myself am being judgemental."
We don't think everything is fine and "hunky dory". Nope, the church is certainly Laodicean. We need to be more fervant and seek Him more diligently.
But none of that has anything to do with our rejection of this fabricated prophecy of the 2520. THAT has no basis in scripture. The Bible doesn't mention it. SOP doesn't mention it. In fact you would have to quit believing Ellen White to believe in the 2520 since she referred to the 2300 day prophecy as the "longest and last prophetic period". That rules out anything longer (2520???) being a true time prophecy.
So go, preach the Good News to a fallen world. We MUST do this, and urgently! But don't make stuff up and then make acceptance of it a test for other believers. That is not what God calls us to do. In fact, through His messenger, that's exactly what he told us NOT to do.
So cut it out. ;-)
Jackson let me leave you with these words from SOP! It's very short and I am sure you have heard it, but like the rest you explain it away. Your condescending tone is the same as the rest "we are the minority because we study and dig deep and you are the majority because you don't understand or dig deep." The present truth rightly obeyed will bring revival, not a message that doesn't exist. I have heard this sad line over and over from those in your camp! You have no idea what anybody believes because you don't know any of us individually. The church as a whole is in apostasy but it is still the apple of God's eye and will go through.
The quote below speaks of a prophecy in a singular form. Not plural as in prophecies! The 2300 is being quoted here not the 2520. EGW and William Miller evidently later understood what the longest time prophecy was.
" The experience of the disciples who preached the “gospel of the kingdom” at the first advent of Christ, has its counterpart in the experience of those who proclaimed the message of his second advent. As the disciples went out preaching, “The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,” so Miller and his associates proclaimed that the longest and last prophetic period brought to view in the Bible was about to expire, that the Judgment was at hand, and the everlasting kingdom was to be ushered in. The preaching of the disciples in regard to time was based on the seventy weeks of Daniel 9. The message given by Miller and his associates announced the termination of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14, of which the seventy weeks form a part. The preaching of each was based upon the fulfillment of a different portion of the same great prophetic period." GC88 351
The Lord will come in His appointed time and He only will judge His people in His appointed time. Not you or any other human on this earth. Your job is to pray for those you see in apostasy, not to judge! Sigh and cry for your people! That's what Daniel did, and he also included himself in with those people he was praying for. He didn't set himself aside from them like the majority of the 2520ers do!
If you read what William Miller wrote and taught you will see that the so-called 2520 prophecy was a "proof" of the 2,300-day prophecy - as was the supposed 666-year prophecy. The "2520" was supposed to demonstrate that God would gather His people at the return of Christ in 1843/4. He did not. In fact the opposite happened as a result of the Great Disappointment. No denominated people were gathered at that time.
You are right, Miller did not get it all right - but who said anything about throwing out all his teachings? This is your straw man. Do you defend Sunday-keeping, or was Miller wrong. When was the battle of Arbela? Were the charts right or wrong? did Rome have dominion 666 years as Miller taught and was reflected in the charts - or was he wrong?
This teaching was then demoted on the 1850 chart and disappeared completely from the 1863 chart. It has never been held as a teaching by the Seventh-day Adventist church neither has the 666 years of Roman domination been taught.
EGW did not need to condemn the 2520 as her husband had already done so at the behest and on behalf of the denomination. If he had been wrong in doing so then she would have spoken out. She did not. She also directed others to read Uriah Smith's book in which he stated that the 2520 was not a time prophecy.
The central thrust of Miller's teaching was that the close of the 2,300 day/year prophecy was to take place in 1843/4 and all the proofs that he used were to signal that close of that period, the period that EGW declared was the longest time prophecy.
EGW refers to a scattering and gathering around that time however, this is not the same as Miller taught. He taught that the scattering would end in 1843/4, not start. Neither did Miller teach that a denomination would be formed in 1843/4.
The charts are not infallible nor without error. See my previous posts in this thread. If they were to be used continually then Ellen White would not have approved of her husband making new charts and would not have enthusiastically distributed said charts.
I also note that you, like all the others, are unable to explain why this is an "essential truth". In regard to being called a heretic (and worse) for not believing in the 2520, I suggest that you read this thread. It was not just one person, there is a common spirit that appears to motivate all Pippenger's followers. It is manifested in the arrogant assumption that anyone who opposes this teaching has not read the pioneers or church history; it is displayed in the rejection of the SDA Church and the rejection of Christ's commission to His church. The stench of self-righteous hypocrisy runs through this as it does through all of the other offshoot "truths" that we "must believe" to be saved.
Yet, you follow the same pattern of not explaining why this is an essential truth? Why, as has often been said, are we lost if we do not believe in "the 2520"? Also I may ask you the same question as I have asked others, why was this matter not introduced in the same way that Hiram Edson introduced it, that of following Ellen White's counsel to lay it before brethren of experience?
The "main point" as you call it, that the judgement of the living has already begun, is attached to the spurious belief that 9/11 is prophetically significant. That is also rejected as being man's invention. I suggest that you read this entire thread and ask you not to replicate that which has gone before. Otherwise, we are just in the endless circling repetition of that which has gone before. Try answering that most basic of questions - why is this an essential truth that I disbelieve at the risk of my eternal salvation?