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I have been looking at supposed SDA online sites. Unfortunately I am getting more and more confused with who is who..now I find this guy teaching a 2520 prophecy..and yep..by all accounts he is an SDA layman.

How many more are amongst us? Do you ever think you are reading an SDA site when in fact it's not of our teaching?

 

A Review of Jeff Pippenger’s teachings - Norman McNulty, M.D.

 

 

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Since this discussion is the top search result on Google for the term "Jeff Pippenger", we have seen a 'round up the troops' movement of Pippenger supporters.  They come here to defend beliefs which the Seventh-day Adventist Church has found to be baseless.  Beliefs which have lead these same supporters of Jeff Pippenger to leave the Seventh-day Adventist Church.  This is a web site for Seventh-day Adventists by Seventh-day Adventists.  Each new member must answer "Yes" to the following question to create a profile here:  "Do you agree to uphold the principles and beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church in your conduct on this site and follow the Site Rules & Guidelines?"

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Jackson
I can see you have a lot of information you need to show these people like Jason, but you will not success. They have features of little horn, they have no ears. Jackson my Brother: These people are trained to kill. They remain killing the true word of God. They will never accept 2520 because they are trained to do so.

Thank you, THE_STONEY_KINGDOM, for your timely response.

Exactly as I pointed out to Jackson, very quick to insult and condemn, whilst not addressing the simplest of questions. This has been the spirit emanating from those following Pippenger and continues to confirm in my mind that this is clearly an indefensible doctrine. Not one of those claiming that this is present truth have been able to explain why it is.

Let me ask you, why is the 2300 important?  Is it salvational? Are any time prophecies salvational?  Are time prophecies important toward salvation if they have already elapsed?  Let me give you an example.  The seventy weeks.  I think we can all agree that this was a salvational message for the jews.  If they disregarded this prophecy, they would not know when it was their savior was to come, or when their probation was to end.  So yes, it was very much a salvational issue for those living during the time of the 490 years.  What about after?  Did this prophecy impart any lessons to those living after the stoning of Stephen?  Well, had the protestants learned from the 490 what the jews should have learned from the 490, they would not have made the mistake of rejecting the 2300 (or the 2520).  They would have been able to see that there was a change of dispensation from the holy place to the most holy place and the door was being shut on them, just as the door from the courtyard to the holy place closed on the jews.  But in fact, no one saw this, not even the Adventists at the time.  They didnt realize this until Hiram Edsons vision of the door opening to the Most Holy Place shortly after the Great Disappointment.  Well, for us, the final close of probation must be understood before it actually closes, otherwise we are lost.  So then, what are our examples to learn from in order to figure this out?  Not just the 2520, but all of them.  The reason we place so much emphasis on the 2520 isnt because it is more important, but because it is the one people reject.  If you go the doctor and you have a broken arm, he most likely wont start off by treating you for high blood pressure.  Well, we see the a lack of knowledge or understanding of the 2520  so that is why we "treat the problem" by talking about it so much.  Not because it is more so important, but because it isn't getting the recognition it should, we believe.  Its just like the argument Im sure youve heard ( i know i have) when talking about the Sabbath with a non adventist.  "Why do you guys focus on one small thing, isnt it only important that we love God and our neighbors?"  Because of this, we must emphasize the Sabbath because it is the point of the law that people reject, not because it is more important than any of the other laws.  So if the 2520 was the prophecy of who God's people were at the beginning of Adventism, do you think the understanding of the 2520 could be important in understanding who God's people are at the end of Adventism?  Do you understand my point a little?  I really dont mean to be condescending in any way as I am writing this.  Its just that it is very frustrating talking to people about this who say "I dont know what the 2520 is" yet they go on to tell you why its wrong to believe it, and then get offended when you tell them that maybe you should familiarize yourself with the topic in a little more detail before sharing your thoughts.  I do not think you fall into that group, John, because at least you have looked into the ins and outs.  And at the same time, all these accusations of judgement and condescension have been going both ways.  I have seen it from both groups.  While it is not right for either group to do it, I tend to understand what our group is going through more because, for one, I believe as they do, and two, we are getting kicked out of our churches over this. And I am sure you understand why your side does it because from your view, we are a bunch of quacks who are introducing spurious doctrine.  But imagine not being able to freely share information with people about this topic because you are forbidden, even in the privacy of your own home, otherwise you will be disfellowshipped.  And while it is hard not to generalize (I agree, I make this mistake) from personal experience, most adventists have no idea about the things that occurred in our past, including 1840-1844, 1888, or the turn of the century when the dispute of the daily came up.  Or even 1957 when we had QOD.  Not many are aware of what high ranking officials in our church have done.  They are not aware that our education system is the exact opposite of what Ellen White endorsed.  Meanwhile, behind the curtain, men like Raymond Cotrell and Desmond Ford are writing their opinion about why Ellen White was wrong about the 2300 days and that the investigative judgement is a myth.  And then our church members adopt these ideas because, well, Cotrell is so well educated and is well known for his theology, he must be right.  But I suppose we should not talk about that.  Let us just believe whatever our pastors tell us to believe and we will do just fine.  Afterall, isn't that what you have done with James White?  Nevermind the fact that a couple months before James White published that statement on the 2520, EGW wrote that James was being overexerted and did not posses the mental capacities required to make decisions on what is present truth.  Are we to believe that whatever James White said was 100% correct simply because there wasn't a statement from Ellen White contradicting it?  EGW must have had a pretty busy life while James was around seeing as it would be necessary for her to follow James around all day to fact-check all his statements.  If she didn't do that, then it would mean every word out of his mouth was of God, right?  I dont mean to belittle you with that comment, i just wanted to point out how ludicrous that idea is.  And by the way, Uriah Smith was totally wrong about the Ottoman empire.  Why then, did she not correct him on such an important issue that almost everyone recognizes as false.  And to say that 911 has no important significance when the Testimonies Vol 9 clearly references it is a little concerning to me.  Especially where in another quote Ellen White says that when the towers fall, Rev 18:1-3 will be fulfilled.  How can that not have relevance?  Even if I am wrong about my beliefs, one thing I know for certain is relevant is 911 because Ellen White ties it in with many important Bible prophecies (not only Rev 18, but also her statement that the 11th of Daniel has nearly reached its fulfillment when the towers fall). 

Jackson, a long answer but like so many before you, you refuse to answer the point.

Let's keep it simple. What makes this so-called prophecy an essential truth that will cause me to lose salvation if I do not accept it?

Also, I will ask that you read the entire thread before continuing to repeat what has gone before. 9-11 is no fulfillment of prophecy. If you want to address it go back to the pages where it was being discussed and join in there. You will see a list of reasons why I deny that it is a fulfillment of what EGW wrote. You can then respond in the appropriate place.

ok, well in order to answer that, i need to know if you think the 2300 is salvational.  that will give me an idea of your thought process and your beliefs

No, you don't need to know anything from me apart from the fact that I am a member of the SDA Church. My opinion on anything makes no difference as to why "the 2520" is essential for my salvation.

If it is salvational for one then it is salvational for all.

So just simply explain why I cannot be saved unless I believe in this 2520 theory.

The Jews tried to stop the proclamation of the message that had been predicted in the word of God; but prophecy must be fulfilled. The Lord says, "Behold, I send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." Somebody is to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, and when he appears, men may say, "You are too earnest, you do not interpret the Scriptures in the proper way. Let me tell you how to teach your message." There are many who cannot distinguish between the work of God and that of man. I shall tell the truth as God gives it to me, and I say now, If you continue to find fault, to have a spirit of variance, you will never know the truth. Jesus said to his disciples, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." They were not in a condition to appreciate sacred and eternal things; but Jesus promised to send the Comforter, who would teach them all things, and bring all things, to their remembrance, whatsoever he had said unto them. Brethren, we must not put our dependence in man. "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" You must hang your helpless souls upon Jesus. It does not become us to drink from the fountain of the valley, when there is a fountain in the mountain. Let us leave the lower streams; let us come to the higher springs. If there is a point of truth that you do not understand, upon which you do not agree, investigate, compare scripture with scripture, sink the shaft of truth down deep into the mine of God's word. You must lay yourselves and your opinions on the altar of God, put away your preconceived ideas, and let the Spirit of Heaven guide you into all truth.  My brother said at one time that he would not hear anything concerning the doctrine we hold, for fear he should be convinced. He would not come to the meetings, or listen to the discourses; but he afterward declared that he saw he was as guilty as if he had heard them. God had given him an opportunity to know the truth, and he would hold him responsible for this opportunity. There are many among us who are prejudiced against the doctrines that are now being discussed. They will not come to hear, they will not calmly investigate, but they put forth their objections in the dark. They are perfectly satisfied with their position. "Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." This scripture applies to those who live under the sound of the message, but who will not come to hear it. How do you know but that the Lord is giving fresh evidences of his truth, placing it in a new setting, that the way of the Lord may be prepared? What plans have you been laying that new light may be infused through the ranks of God's people? What evidence have you that God has not sent light to his children? All self-sufficiency, egotism, and pride of opinion must be put away. We must come to the feet of Jesus, and learn of him who is meek and lowly of heart. Jesus did not teach his disciples as the rabbis taught theirs. Many of the Jews came and listened as Christ revealed the mysteries of salvation, but they came not to learn they came to criticize, to catch him in some inconsistency, that they might have something with which to prejudice the people. They were content with their knowledge, but the children of God must know the voice of the true Shepherd. Is not this a time when it would be highly proper to fast and pray before God? We are in danger of variance, in danger of taking sides on a controverted point; and should we not seek God in earnestness, with humiliation of soul, that we may know what is truth? 1888 534

John,

I do not agree that what is salvational for one is salvational for another.  This would mean that every person through out history would have to live up to the light that we as Adventists have come to understand.  Salvation is different for each individual.  It is based upon the light an individual has and the actions they took according to that light.  If you claim to be an SDA, then I would expect you to know what the 2300 is, what it means, and why it's important.  I do think that the 2300 days is salvational for Adventists because it establishes one of our main pillars which is the idea of the investigative judgement.  If then, the 2300 is salvational, and the 2520 complements the 2300, you can understand why we believe it to be a very important prophecy and even salvational.  I think what happens a lot of times is people throw around the world "salvational" without much context behind it.  Obviously there are going to be many people in heaven who never kept the true Sabbath.  But if someone claimed to be Adventist and never kept the true Sabbath, I doubt he would be in heaven because of their refusal to follow truth so clearly and readily available to him.  So often we balk at the word "salvational' because it really is different for each person.  Ellen White has said that the moments leading up to the close of probation are salvational.  Yet, we would not necessarily lead out with that in an evangelical series to people who have never been exposed to Adventism.  The truths discovered on the charts and the EGW quotes associated with them makes it clear that those truths are very much a part of what it means to be adventist.  thus, to know what is on those charts and to reason all those beliefs away based on the hip theology taken from all the other protestant and catholic churches would cause a person to be on very shaky ground.  Probably the biggest conceptual understanding as to why the 2520 is salvational for an adventist is because the 2520 is the prophecy that predicted the establishment of the adventist people.  to reject this prophecy would mean you have no clear prophecy to point to find God's remnant people (in the Bible at least).  Essentially, rejecting the 2520 is akin to rejecting Adventists as God's remnant people.  This is why it is hard for us to believe people dont like hearing about the 2520.  if anything, you think people would want as much proof as you can get to establish us as Gods people. But this is something we have been saying for a while.  I guess this is not a good enough answer for you because you keep asking "why is it salvational" despite having that question answered over and over again.  I am still interested to know whether or not you think the 2300 is salvational.  It seems like a pretty basic question for an adventist.  I found your response odd because you have already divulged so much information about your beliefs that it would seem natural to give your input on the 2300. 

Jackson, (your comments italicised)

If you claim to be an SDA, then I would expect you to know what the 2300 is, what it means, and why it's important.  I do think that the 2300 days is salvational for Adventists because it establishes one of our main pillars which is the idea of the investigative judgement.  If then, the 2300 is salvational, and the 2520 complements the 2300, you can understand why we believe it to be a very important prophecy and even salvational.”

 

It’s strange how everyone believing this teaching always refers to “the 2520” without defining what they mean. After all, it is not the acceptance of prophetic periods themselves but rather what they define that is important. When we refer to the 2,300 year prophecy it is the event that it denotes that is important. If the 2,300 year prophecy and “the 2520” are complimentary and both point to the investigative judgement (which was not what William Miller taught) then it contradicts the point. If it is an essential truth one would expect it to be unique. However, as to “the 2520” supporting the 2,300 year prophecy, that certainly was how William Miller used it. In the same way he interpreted the “666” of Rev.13 to mean 666 years and used that to also support prophetic dates.

Both were rejected by the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and have never been a part of SDA beliefs. The SDAs are the only people who teach the true interpretation of Dan.8:14 and have never needed “the 2520” to do it. So, I don’t see how it can be salvational if the SDA church has spread its message (including Dan.8:14) around the world without the need to refer to Lev.26.

 

The truths discovered on the charts and the EGW quotes associated with them makes it clear that those truths are very much a part of what it means to be adventist.  thus, to know what is on those charts and to reason all those beliefs away based on the hip theology taken from all the other protestant and catholic churches would cause a person to be on very shaky ground.”

 

The truths, yes. But not everything on the 1843 & 1850 charts is the truth. Ellen White encouraged Seventh-day Adventists to use the 1863 charts and key.

 

“Probably the biggest conceptual understanding as to why the 2520 is salvational for an adventist is because the 2520 is the prophecy that predicted the establishment of the adventist people.  to reject this prophecy would mean you have no clear prophecy to point to find God's remnant people (in the Bible at least).  Essentially, rejecting the 2520 is akin to rejecting Adventists as God's remnant people.  This is why it is hard for us to believe people dont like hearing about the 2520.

 

This is demonstrably wrong. Personally, I didn’t need “the 2520” to tell me that this church is God’s denominated church established by Him. It was Rev.3 that convinced me in regard to the place of both the Millerites and the Seventh-day Adventists in prophecy the former being confirmed by Rev.10 and the latter by Rev.12, 13 & 14. I suggest that there are millions of SDAs around the world who did not need “the 2520” to be convinced in regard to God’s remnant people.

 

So, in that respect it is obviously neither essential nor salvational.

 

if anything, you think people would want as much proof as you can get to establish us as Gods people. But this is something we have been saying for a while.  I guess this is not a good enough answer for you because you keep asking "why is it salvational" despite having that question answered over and over again.”

 

Please point to one post in this thread that answers that question. If you are saying that belief in “the 2520” is essential to acceptance of us as God’s remnant people and is therefore salvational – see above.

 

Put simply, I don’t need “the 2520” to believe that we are God’s remnant people. If that is the reason why it is supposed to be essential to my salvation it a very bad reason and easily disproved.

Sister White understood, as Miller did, that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are an expansion of the prophecies of Moses in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. To say that Leviticus 26 is not a prophecy is like saying that Genesis 3:15 is not a prophecy.

exactly.  as exhibited by the fact that Daniel actually references Lev 26 in Dan 9.  to not recognize that is just dishonesty. 

There is nothing complicated about the 2520. It is much easier to explain than the 2300 days. So much rubbish has been placed around this prophecy that it can be a problem to wade through the objections. I would simply start by reading what Miller wrote on the topic. He wrote in an easy to understand manner.

  My brethren, the value of the evidences of truth that we have received during the past half century, is above estimate. These evidences are as treasure hidden in a field. Search for them. Study the Bible truths that for fifty years have been calling us out from the world. Present this evidence in clear, plain lines. Those who have been long in the truth, and those who have recently received the truth, must now dig for the buried heavenly treasure. Let every man work to the point. Study the Word of God. Revive the evidences given in the past. "Search the Scriptures," Christ said; "for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."  {RH, April 19, 1906 par. 13}  

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