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#7

I've heard it a lot, but have never seen it in the Scriptures. So many say we are born sinful, or are born with a sinful nature. There's no quote from the Bible or EGW writings to sustain this belief.

Unless a sinful nature is something other than the natural tendency to sin. Is there another definition of "sinful nature"?

People naturally sin because they see so many others in the world naturally sinning. Not because of something they are born with. Children naturally copy their parents. For instance, whenever we see a wicked king, it always says that he walked in the way of his fathers. That's because his fathers where a stronger influence on him than the prophets.

You would have to say that if any child of any wicked person on earth where taken at birth to heaven to be raised by a sinless couple on an unfallen world, that that child would somehow be inclined to sin.

There's no way. A sinful nature is not something we are born with. It's something that we learn from others in this wicked world.

Jesus kept Himself from sinning by doing God's work. That's why He said:

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.


Then you can't say that a person who is doing God's work constantly and has not even the slightest inclination to give into temptation, has a sinful nature. Because where it may have once been natural for him to sin, it is now natural for him to do righteousness. This should be the case for all of us. We should all have a new nature in Christ.

Job kept himself from sin since his youth by keeping busy doing the Lord's work. Read the book of Job. The only sin the Devil could bring up against him, he had to dig up from when Job was a kid:

Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.

Some are born filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist....


See all the things he would spend his life doing?

John was not born with a sinful nature. He was born filled with the Holy Ghost. That's because his parents where holy. They where not sinful. Maybe they where at one time, but they where not any more. They had a new nature in Christ. This is what God is able to do. He is able to make you holy. Don't deny it. Accept it. And give glory to God for it.

And then your children can be holy:

1 Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy

This is a quick, ungraceful post. I apologize. I'm seriously pressed for time. Thank you for your patience. God bless.

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"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." (Ps 58:3) Yet isn't this the lot of every descendant of Adam? Haven't we all gone astray from the beginning?

Every person, if they have experienced salvation, is necessarily been born "again".
Because, I believe, our physical birth brings us out in a state that necessitates a new beginning.

And from the Spirit of Prophecy,
"Let me tell you that children are born to evil." (2T 360)
Stewart

You have made some positive statments about an issue that is not that well studied, or one that is very hard for some to accept.

First I would like to draw attention the the verse in Psalms that you quoted.


"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."Psalm 58:3 (ESV)



Please correct me if I am wrong, but from my reading of your post, it sounds like that you are saying that everyone is estranged from the womb. It would be easy to jump to that conclusion if this were the only information available. However, there is more. I'll make some statements, if texts are desired, I'll attempt to furnish them.

1. This text written by David, see verse 1, who lived, as I am aware you know, before the incarnation. I am only making that statement for reference, not as any intended insult of your knowledge of the Bible.

2. This says the wicked are estranged, not everyone who is born.

This does not say that everyone is estranged, only the wicked. This follows the idea that those who are born to parents who have choosen to serve Satan, that their offspring are also enemies of God. We need to be careful to not read too much more then that into the text.

Since this was written before Calvary, things changed then. Satan becasme a convicted criminal and he no longer has the authority that was granted to him by Adam. Today, each person has had their free moral agency restored to them.

Without going into any detail, I suspect that a check of the EGW writtings will bring indications that children who are born to parents who are in harmony with heaven, will be saved, if for some reason they do not live to become an accountable being. But, that is for another discussion.

Just some things to think about.

Maranatha :)
Ray
Thank you Stewart

Stewart said:
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." (Ps 58:3) Yet isn't this the lot of every descendant of Adam? Haven't we all gone astray from the beginning?

I'm certainly not going to debate whether a newborn baby is able to speak lies, or to even speak at all. That's not the point of this, is it? When the wicked are destroyed from the face of the earth, their children are destroyed with them. As in the case of the flood, Sodom, Joshua's conquests, the judgment upon Jerusalem, the 7 last plagues, etc. They are unclean, as quoted earlier:

1 Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy

Children are either unclean or holy, depending on their parents. So if the children of the wicked are destroyed with them, then the children of the righteous are also saved with them.

Stewart said:
Every person, if they have experienced salvation, is necessarily been born "again".
Because, I believe, our physical birth brings us out in a state that necessitates a new beginning.


If a saved mother dies with her child, whether a newborn, or a toddler, that child, must be raised with his mother in the first resurrection and have eternal life. He never had a "new beginning", but only one beginning, his natural birth. Neither did he need a sprinkling baptism for his "original sin".

Some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, "How can little children have this test and trial?" I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians. . . . {LDE 293.2}

This is a quick quote. There's probably a better one.

These babies where not born sinful, or born with a sinful nature. They where born saved, because they where born to saved parents.

Stewart said:
And from the Spirit of Prophecy,
"Let me tell you that children are born to evil." (2T 360)


This is generally speaking and a figure of speech. She is not saying children are literally devising evil plans as soon as they are born. The point of what she is saying is parents need to be watchful, because children will not grow up right on their own in this sinful world.

Prov. 29:17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.

Children make messes. They get into things and break things and they keep wanting to play when you have work to do and sometimes they are rough and hurt themselves and hurt others. Well, I only have a two year old. I don't know what they do after that point. But all this is not sin. It's just the normal behavior of children. My baby will climb on my neck and bounce, and then fall over backwards in a pile of pillows and laugh, and do it again, while I'm typing. It's distracting, but that's not sinful. I'm sure Jesus made messes, and got into things and broke stuff, and needed to be corrected. But He was not sinful nor was He born with a sinful nature. And nor are other children who do such things.

Jesus' and John's and other important men and women of God, had their parents chosen by God. Parents who where holy and sanctified and who had the Holy Ghost. This is one of the big advantages Jesus had that most of us don't have, Godly parents. He had people who taught Him the Scriptures from an early age.

Generally speaking, we don't appreciate the Scriptures nearly as much as Jesus did.

Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

It was godly parents and relatives who taught Him the Scripture, and gave him encouragement and where a holy and a powerful influence on Him. Having God's Word in His heart and doing God's work, which He learned from the Scriptures and the godly example of others, that kept him from sinning. Not some special nature that we can't have, or that our children can't have.

See, righteousness can be inherited as sin can be inherited.

Yes we have an inherent sinful nature, generally speaking. But it is not inherited through birth or physical genetics, but through the influence of others. Whether we can literally be influenced to sin while in the womb, I don't know. It's possible.

What we are born with is a fallen physical nature. Not the nature of Adam after the fall. If that where so, we would grow to be 18 feet tall and live over 900 year life spans. We inherit the genetic degeneracy of 6000 years of a sinful world. That's our disadvantage, physical weakness. I suppose this could make one more inclined to sin. Our advantage is we have more knowledge of God's Word than any generation before us.

How is that going to balance out? We will see....
Replying to this post.

Alric Prendergast said:
that child is just as sinful as the child born to a family who does the most sinful and horrible things.

Then why do the children of righteous parents still get to go to heaven if they die? They never repented of this sin, that you say they are guilty of and have somehow inherited.
And how can a child even be sinful if he has never sinned. What kind of sin can a baby commit? Explain this to me.

Alric Prendergast said:
The Sin is in the nature and not in the actions first!

How can sin be in a nature. Sin is breaking God's law. It is an action. Not a substance that is in a nature. If you have sin in your life, that means you have an act of sin on the record of your life. There is not one single line that says we have "sin in our nature". That's kind of ridiculous if you think about it.

All this comes from the "Original Sin" doctrine. Adventists have polluted their beliefs because of pressure from Rome.

Alric Prendergast said:
...then are we righteous because we do right or is it one that is made righteous by Christ that alone does the right that is acceptable by God?

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Alric Prendergast said:
Unless we see that we inherit the sinful nature of Adam at birth and that we need Jesus, so that we can be born again (why be born again, if we r ok?) Then we will never fully understand the gospel.

You're just making this stuff up. That's not in the Bible or EGW writings. Not even close.

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Alric Prendergast said:
Yes, we are born with a sinful nature

What a simple statement. Then why has no prophet ever uttered the words: "we are born with a sinful nature", or anything close to it. Search Ellen White writings for the word "born" and "sinful nature" = 0 hits. "Born sinful" = 0 hits.

Error after error, and then MsMS says:
"Very good reply, alric!"

Check everything against Scripture before you go along with it.

James 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.


That's the carnal man. The carnal or sinful nature. He can't discern spiritual things. They are foolishness to him. Even Peter was still carnal when Jesus said:

Matt. 16:23 ...thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Do you understand this? Conversion gives you a new nature. And that nature is yours. It becomes you.

If Christ has to give you that nature through His Word, then Satan also has to give you a fallen nature through his word, and his word is this:

Gen. 3:4 Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 ... your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


The vast, vast majority of people receive Satan's word and receive a sinful nature. They naturally do it because everyone else is doing it. There's no reason not to.

But children can be shielded and saved from this. It is possible and it has happened before.
I believe we were born with a sinful nature, because our nature does not speak to what we do but what we are PRONE to do..Not what we have done, but what we are..

Babies are a question I cannot wait to ask Jesus about, like how it all worked through the centuries...EVERYTHING!!...But, we cannot discount what the Bible says about our nature's being inherant, and how Christ had to come take on our sinful natures to free us..

Some things are just not discerned without the Spirit to guide us, and sometimes our own pre-dispositions and beliefs lend us a deaf ear about His ways, sometimes..But that does not change the Truth..Nothing will do that..

We all got the nature that was passed down from Adam..We can have the nature that Christ wants to give us, but we cant just discount things for our own sensibilities..
Deborah

In the discussion of "sinful" or "sinless" nature, not just here but in general, terms are being used in very fluid ways. Which is the way Satan likes it, as he can bring in many misunderstandings that way and decieve, if possible, even the very elect. So, from my study here are a few things I have picked up.

Humans were created to have:
1. A nature i.e character
2. A body i.e. our physical entity.

However, in the discussion of human nature and divine nature, these two aspects have become scrambled to the point of almost seeming to be one and the same. I.e. that our character is the same as our physical entity.

It is true that one effects and has influence on the other. However, it is not true that they are one and the same.

Jesus had a "sinful nature" as some use the term, in that He had a body, that, as Ellen White describes it, had suffered the ravages of 4,000 years of sin. Or to be more accurate, here is her statement.

"Christ Had a Human Body and a Human Mind.--A human body and a human mind were His. He was bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. He was subjected to poverty from His first entrance into the world. He was subject to disappointment and trial in His own home, among His own brethren. He was not surrounded, as in the heavenly courts, with pure and lovely characters. He was compassed with difficulties. He came into our world to maintain a pure, sinless character, and to refute Satan's lie that it was not possible for human beings to keep the law of God. Christ came to live the law in His human character in just that way in which all may live the law in human nature if they will do as Christ was doing. He had inspired holy men of old to write for the benefit of man: "Let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me" (Isaiah 27:5)." {3SM 129.4}

So, as far as His body was concerned, yes, it was just as "sinful" (again a term that is used far to indiscriminatly) as any that people have today.

HOWEVER, as far as His character, that is an entirely different story. He was the "Son of God." He was not a slave of Satan, just as Adam and Eve were before they choose to serve Satan. There was no stain on His character.

"They could not appreciate the purity of that spirit upon which was no stain of sin." {DA 196.2}

So, as far as the character, or spirit, of Jesus. There was no stain of sin. So, at one and the same time, Jesus had a character/spirit that was sin free, while He had a body that was very much the same as any other human being that has walked on planet earth since the fall.

Thus, He and we have two natures. Our spiritual/intellectual (in the area of free moral agency) and our physical. What God is interested in, is our spiritual nature. How do we use the heavenly gift of "free moral agency" that He has given to us?

Jesus could say this:

"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." JOH 5:30 NASB

This is a description of:
1. The sinless life that Jesus lived.
2. The sinless life that we can live. See James 1:2-4.

As for the body. What the body does is dependent upon what the spirit/heart does, or how the gift of free moral agency is used. Likewise how our bodies are treated will influence our moral choices. While both influence the other, in God's plan, the mind/heart/free moral agency is to control our body and its behavior.

So, in reality, it is a misuse of the term "nature" to say that Jesus had a sinful nature. No, He had a body that had been ravaged by 4,000 years of sin. He had a body that would get hungry, thirsty, have emotions, desires, etc. just as we do. However, at an early age He recognized that His was a higher calling. He recognized that in fact He was no run-of-the-mill human being. He was the incarnate Son of God. As such, He choose to only do what His Heavenly Father told Him what to do, not give in to the demands of His physical body.

Does that help?

Maranatha :)
Ray
Aleric

Those were good quotes, HOWEVER, two things must be remembered.
1. Ellen White was not a theologian. She wrote as a pastor, not a theologian. So, we must give her leaway in that she does not always use words in the most strict theological manner. This not to say that she is not accurate, but that sometimes her statements need a little more careful study, just like a number of passages in the Bible demand.

2. It is important to use names, phrases and adjectives with the same meaning as she used them.

So, the term "sinful nature." There are three such phrases that are used today.
A) Sinful Nature.
B) Divine Nature
C) Sinless Nature

In fact, none of these primarily address the human body we are living in. These have to do with our stature before God.

A) Sinful Nature. This might be likened to the status of a slave to Satan.
B) Divine Nature. This would be likened to one who has chosen to be on God's side and not have a Free Nature.
C) Sinless Nature. This would be the equivilent of being perfect in God's sight. The nature that we are gvien when we are baptized.

These are overly simplisic statements. But, hopefully they will bring in another dimension to the discussion.

Maranatha :)
Ray
MsMS

In trying to sort out who said what above, I might confuse some things. So, I'll just make a statement and let the reader sort out who I am responding to. Then maybe I'll know myself.

In another post, someone commented that why should I have needed to write a whole chapter on the nature of sin. The subject seems so very simple. After all, did not Ellen White write?

"Now, we want to understand what sin is--that it is the transgression of God's law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. Therefore we see that those who claim to be led of God, and go right away from Him and His law, do not search the Scriptures. But the Lord will lead His people; for He says that His sheep will follow if they hear His voice, but a stranger will they not follow. Then it becomes us to thoroughly understand the Scriptures. And we will not have to inquire whether others have the truth, for it will be seen in their characters." {FW 56.1}

Now, if this is read in the way many seem to read it, as I read it at one time, then this would make Ellen White a false prophet, which she is not. For there are at least three other definitions of sin in the Bible and some have told me that there are a couple others that I have missed. However, they only strengthen the position that I have found.

First of all, addressing Ellen White's statment.

Check a English dictionary and you will find that the word: "defininition" can have two meanings, depending on the context.
1. To define as in a dicitonary definition.
2. To identify, or recognize by being able to observe its qualities.

If we take EGW's quote as having her say that this is the only "dictionary definintion," then she is flat wrong. However, if we use the second definition, then she is 100% correct. Since humans cannot read the heart of another, they can only identify the presence of sin by the life of the individual. If their actions are not in harmony with God's word, then they are sinning. But this is not defining, as a dictionary would do, sin. It is only a clue as to how to identify its presence.

In fact, there are at least three other passages that come much closer to a dictionary type definitionthen 1 John 3:4. And, not to worry, they only make the understanding of sin more clear, they do not confuse the issue, unless one chooses to hang on to preconcieved opinions.

These are:
James 4:17 If we can know what is right and if choose to refuse to do it, to us it is sin.

Romans 14:23 Anything that we do, "good" or "bad" that does not result in trusting God, is sin. This is probably the best of the rest of the text.

1 John 5:17 Any choice we make, unrighteousness, that does not use our power of free moral agency to choose God's way, is sin.

Let's take a look at 1 John 3:4 in the King James Version that most are comfortable with.

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Now again in a more current translation of the Bible.

1 John 3:4 (ESV)
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

The key word here is: "ALSO." It is not good reading to take only a half of a sentence when the balance of the sentence is on the same subject and attempt to build a doctrine on it, even if it is done this way all of the time. There is an exception ofrso, but they are clearly exceptions. Romans 14:23 is one of those, depending on how it is rendered into English.

What is being said here is: "Anyone who makes a practice of using their free moral agency to choose to serve another authority, is putting sin into practice, which is contrary to God's instructions. It is not correct to seperate what comes before the word "also" and what follows. Yet, that is exactly what has been done in the Christian world today. That is not "rightly handling the word of truth."

Hopefully this will help.

Marantha :)
Ray
Apologies for the delay in replying... in regard to the nature that we are born with...

"Seth was a worthy character, and was to take the place of Abel in right doing. Yet he was a son of Adam like sinful Cain, and inherited from the nature of Adam no more natural goodness than did Cain. He was born in sin; but by the grace of God, in receiving the faithful instructions of his father Adam, he honored God in doing his will. He separated himself from the corrupt descendants of Cain, and labored, as Abel would have done had he lived, to turn the minds of sinful men to revere and obey God." (Spirit of Prophecy Vol.1, p.60)

"The sinful nature of man was weak, and he was prone to the transgression of God's commandments. Man had not the power to do the words of God; that is why Christ came to our world, that He might give him moral power. There was no power in heaven or in earth but the power of Christ that could deliver from the [sentence illegible in original]. He came to meet the difficulty and to remove it. His own arm brought salvation. God sent forth His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh that He might condemn sin in the flesh and reveal the fact to heaven, to the worlds unfallen and also the fallen world, that through the power of divine grace, through partaking of the divine nature, man need no longer stand under the curse of the law or remain in transgression." Manuscript Releases Vol.14, p.82)

"Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those he wished to save. In him was no guile or sinfulness; he was ever pure and undefiled; yet he took upon him our sinful nature. Clothing his divinity with humanity, that he might associate with fallen humanity, he sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In his own character he displayed to the world the character of God. He pleased not himself, but went about doing good. His whole history, for more than thirty years, was one of pure, disinterested benevolence. By his words, his influence, and his example, he made men feel that it was possible for them to return to their loyalty and be reinstated in God's favor. He led them to see that if they repented, if their characters were transformed after the divine similitude, they would win immortality." (Review & Herald 15th December 1896)

IIRC Sis. White referred to us being born with the "propensity" to sin (sorry, no time to look for a quote). To that I would add that without Christ we have been weakened by sin as a race to such an extent that the propensity is impossible to resist.
Thank you MsMS. I believe we have a spiritual and a physical nature. A spiritual sinful nature must be overcome. Just look up "sinful nature" and "overcome". Yet the fallen physical nature, God will take care of at the Resurrection.

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing he could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam. {YI, December 20, 1900 par. 7}

Was Jesus ever defiled by sin? Our physical nature is defiled by sin, otherwise, we would be glowing, like Adam glowed, and would have a much greater physical and mental capacity. But I don't think a person can be defiled by sin spiritually, until they commit sin. So Christ was not thus defiled.

But who can say Jesus was born with a sinful nature? Was it natural for Him to sin? It seems like He would have been guarded from whatever would give him such a characteristic.

A sinful spiritual nature is developed and cultivated by association with the world. You either join with others in their forbidden acts, or be crucified by them. Most people choose not to be crucified.

And maybe this decision is influenced by our weak physical nature, which gives a fear of death. "And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.", (Hebrews 2:15).

So that would be a valid argument.

Let's quote that whole section for reference here:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.
2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Oh wait... Here we go...

Christ had not exchanged His divinity for humanity; but He had clothed His divinity in humanity (RH Oct. 29, 1895). {5BC 1128.3}
(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; Heb. 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

Well... She did just say Adam's posterity was born with a propensity for sin, and Christ was not born with this same propensity.

You have to admit it is confusing, because how could He have been tempted in all points like we are if we are born with a propensity for sin, but He was not. That doesn't seem to make sense.

Could there have been other exceptions to the rule though? After all, it says:

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Yet not all have died. There are two on record who never died; Enoch and Elijah. Then there are those at the 2nd coming. And again:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Yet not all have sinned. And don't say we where born with sin, either. There have been children who died, and will be in the resurrection, who never had the opportunity to sin.

So could there also be others who where born with no propensity to sin, as Jesus was? John was born filled with the Holy Spirit. "Born born again", as some have said. Surely he was not the only one. Yet we have no real record of John's life, and there is no "Book of John the Baptist". And I would guess, this is the reason for that:

Men whom God favored, and to whom He entrusted great responsibilities, were sometimes overcome by temptation and committed sin, even as we at the present day strive, waver, and frequently fall into error. Their lives, with all their faults and follies, are open before us, both for our encouragement and warning. If they had been represented as without fault, we, with our sinful nature, might despair at our own mistakes and failures. But seeing where others struggled through discouragements like our own, where they fell under temptations as we have done, and yet took heart again and conquered through the grace of God, we are encouraged in our striving after righteousness. As they, though sometimes beaten back, recovered their ground, and were blessed of God, so we too may be overcomers in the strength of Jesus. On the other hand, the record of their lives may serve as a warning to us. It shows that God will by no means clear the guilty. He sees sin in His most favored ones, and He deals with it in them even more strictly than in those who have less light and responsibility. {PP 238.2}
Rush4hire

You made these statements.

(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; Heb. 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

Well... She did just say Adam's posterity was born with a propensity for sin, and Christ was not born with this same propensity.

You have to admit it is confusing, because how could He have been tempted in all points like we are if we are born with a propensity for sin, but He was not. That doesn't seem to make sense.


This is only confusing when all of the information is not in. Adam's posterity was born with a propenisty to sin. Agreed. However, Jesus was not a descendant of Adam, in this area, He was the Son of God, not a son of Adam. Tes, it is true that Jesus was born into the lineage of Adam, however, His Father was the Holy Spirit, not Adam. Only the physical body that Jesus assumed was in the lineage of Adam. His character and status was that of God.

Maranatha :)
Ray

I can almost hear the responses, but I'll wait to address them when they are asked.
OK. Has anyone ever been able to explain this? If we are born with the propensities to sin, and Jesus was not, then how is it that He was tempted like we are? We are tempted like people with propensities, and He was tempted like someone without propensities. Yet, it says He was tempted like we are.

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