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#7

I've heard it a lot, but have never seen it in the Scriptures. So many say we are born sinful, or are born with a sinful nature. There's no quote from the Bible or EGW writings to sustain this belief.

Unless a sinful nature is something other than the natural tendency to sin. Is there another definition of "sinful nature"?

People naturally sin because they see so many others in the world naturally sinning. Not because of something they are born with. Children naturally copy their parents. For instance, whenever we see a wicked king, it always says that he walked in the way of his fathers. That's because his fathers where a stronger influence on him than the prophets.

You would have to say that if any child of any wicked person on earth where taken at birth to heaven to be raised by a sinless couple on an unfallen world, that that child would somehow be inclined to sin.

There's no way. A sinful nature is not something we are born with. It's something that we learn from others in this wicked world.

Jesus kept Himself from sinning by doing God's work. That's why He said:

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.


Then you can't say that a person who is doing God's work constantly and has not even the slightest inclination to give into temptation, has a sinful nature. Because where it may have once been natural for him to sin, it is now natural for him to do righteousness. This should be the case for all of us. We should all have a new nature in Christ.

Job kept himself from sin since his youth by keeping busy doing the Lord's work. Read the book of Job. The only sin the Devil could bring up against him, he had to dig up from when Job was a kid:

Job 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.

Some are born filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist....


See all the things he would spend his life doing?

John was not born with a sinful nature. He was born filled with the Holy Ghost. That's because his parents where holy. They where not sinful. Maybe they where at one time, but they where not any more. They had a new nature in Christ. This is what God is able to do. He is able to make you holy. Don't deny it. Accept it. And give glory to God for it.

And then your children can be holy:

1 Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy

This is a quick, ungraceful post. I apologize. I'm seriously pressed for time. Thank you for your patience. God bless.

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Rob said:
I forgot to add this my friend, yes parents can influence a fetus before it is born, as well as Satan can.

Well, there you go. People give their children to Satan, like a living sacrifice, teaching them all the ways of the world. So, if Satan has control over the parents, then through the parents, he has control over the children.

Rob said:
Jesus replies with ones easiest for the man to keep and ends with the hardest ones. Finally Jesus speaks of a commandment impossible to keep. The man is sorrowful, as were the disciples in amazement.

Jesus didn't add to the requirements of salvation. The man needed to sell his stuff and follow Jesus, to be able to keep the Ten Commandments. His business was causing him to sin. Well, that's a pretty big topic. Why don't I open a new thread for that.

[writing new topic...]

Here it is:

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/the-rich-young-ruler
Hi Rush4hire.

I found an interesting statement that brings a little more light to bear upon the subject of this post. It speaks of our tendencies to sin and how no example or teaching is needed.

Self-indulgence, love of pleasure, enmity, pride, self-esteem, envy, jealousy, will grow spontaneously, without example and teaching. In our present fallen state all that is needed is to give up the mind and character to its natural tendencies. In the natural world, give up a field to itself and you will see it covered with briers and thorns; but if it yields precious grain or beautiful flowers, care and unremitting labor must be applied. {Mar 229.4}

Thank you for allowing my reply
Hi MsMS

thank you for sharing these thoughts. This is a great study.

Thank you for allowing my reply.
Gentlemen, and any others who read this.

This confusion can be easily resolved with the principles found in just one passage.

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16 (ESV)

All who are born in the family of Adam, up to the cross, were slaves of Satan, with the notable exception of our Savior, who was a free man.

Those who are baptized into the family of God, become free men and women, because they have choosen a free man as their father. No longer are they a slave of Satan, but they are sevants of the Living God. Likewise, their children are also "free men," until they can develope to the point where it is physically possible for them to make moral decisions, they are children of free parents, therefore, they are free.

(NOTE: The frontal lobes, where moral choices are made, do not "come on line" at birth. Some estimate that they are functional at about 12. Biblical evidence could be construed to mean that they are not fully functional until 30. But, while the exact time as to when God considered us to be "free moral agents" is not known, we can know that the part of our brain where those choices are made is not fully functional until circa 12 years of age.)

However, when a person reaches the "age of accountability," then they can choose their own master. They can choose to serve Satan and become his slave and receive the reward reserved for Satan and his angels. OR they can choose to be servants of the living God and live and reign with Him forever. The choice they make is passed on to their children and so forth.

This inheritance of either slavery to Satan or being free as a servant of the Living God is only applicable until they are physically able to choose for themslves, not any longer. Then their personal choice voids or confirms what they inherited.

Maranatha :)
Ray
Hi Ray.

Thank you for bringing further clarification and insight to this subject. Personal choice and age of accountability are certainly significant factors in this whole discussion about sin, sinning and the sinful nature.

Thank you for allowing my reply
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).

Death passes "upon all" of us.
Why? because "all have sinned".

So when does death pass upon a person?
Isn't it at the same time that "sin" passes upon them?
Body + Breath = Spirit
Two components compose us as human beings, not hard to understand Christ as a perfect mind in an imperfect (propensity to sin) body.
Tyrone said:
I found an interesting statement that brings a little more light to bear upon the subject of this post. It speaks of our tendencies to sin and how no example or teaching is needed.

Self-indulgence, love of pleasure, enmity, pride, self-esteem, envy, jealousy, will grow spontaneously, without example and teaching. In our present fallen state all that is needed is to give up the mind and character to its natural tendencies. In the natural world, give up a field to itself and you will see it covered with briers and thorns; but if it yields precious grain or beautiful flowers, care and unremitting labor must be applied. {Mar 229.4}


Thanks again, Tyrone. That is quite useful. The term, "our present fallen state" can easily be taken to refer to an individual. But I think it can also refer to the state of the whole human race. Where do the seeds come from to grow the briers and thorns? They come from a world full of briers and thorns. From birth a human being is bombarded with the sinful influence of the world around him. It takes work for parents to cultivate good things in children, and it takes work for someone who is born again to keep his garden weeded and fruitful.

Again, we still have to deal with the child who gets resurrected. Is he going to naturally grow weeds, being surrounded by the love and peace of the New Earth? No. The seeds in his garden will come from the world around him. And by that time, there will be no more thorns and briers in the world. This is a whole different kind of world we're talking about. It's how God originally intended it to be. No more sin. No more dying. No more fear of being lost. No more defilement.

Rev. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

That's why this child, though supposed sinful from birth, will be safe to save, though he never made a profession of faith, or experienced the new birth, or ever repented of any sin.
MaMS said:
This is a difference between Jesus and us. He was born "sanctified", filled with the Holy Spirit from birth, we are not.

Then there is also the problem with John the Baptist. He was also born filled with the Holy Spirit:

1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
I do appreciate those quotes. I have read them, but I have run out of time tonight, so I can't comment. I started reading your topic about the duel nature of Christ, but there is so much material there. I didn't want to comment, unless I had it all, which I was not able to do. So, sorry.

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