Shalom to all the saints
I have a question maybe has been addressed before, can one be an Adventist and not believe in the writings of Ellen White.commonly called the Spirit of Prophecy. I ask this because , there are facts that have been hidden from ordinary saints such as
1.) that Ellen White made false prophecies and plagiarized most of her works that even the things written as the inspired word of God were plagiarize. she also made false prophecies.
google the Bible Conference 1919"
2.) that the writings of Ellen white are the Spirit of Prophecy mentioned Rev 19:10 this is very unbiblical
3.) that the Investigative Judgement teaching does no hold water
4.) what are the implications on our baptism that have a condition that we accept EGW as being a prophet.
I have met and discussed with many fellow Adventists some who know about this, others who do not and amongst all these grouping are a section that will say they do not believe in the works of EGW. Thus may heading that can we be adventists that do not believe in Ellen White.
With respect to the discourse on Daniel Chapter 7 and the investigative judgement, one is of the informed opinion that some persons have put it in its right perspective; however, there are many persons who believe that a concept/doctrine that has been perpetuated for generations is of sound Bible base. They, like some persons of the Catholic system, for example, have not given way to a thorough investigation of the matter. However, I trust that Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit will speak to the repentant heart/mind. May They guide you to relook at your church's theories posit with Their Guidance. For although a relationship with Jehovah, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is paramount, doctrines/concepts/theories do influence one's thought process religiously.
As a result, being privy to the discourse one is doing his own personal investigation of the Seventh - day Adventist material to that of the Bible and several other sources relating to Adventism theology.
However, let me establish, that the Angel that spoke to Daniel revealed to him, Daniel, what will occur to the fourth beast who was waging war against God's people, one; and, blaspheming God, two. I invite you to read the passage:
Daniel Chapter 7 v 23 - 26
23Then he said to me, “This fourth beast is the fourth world power that will rule the earth. It will be different from all the others. It will devour the whole world, trampling and crushing everything in its path. 24Its ten horns are ten kings who will rule that empire. Then another king will arise, different from the other ten, who will subdue three of them. 25He will defy the Most High and oppress the holy people of the Most High. He will try to change their sacred festivals and laws, and they will be placed under his control for a time, times, and half a time.
26“But then the court will pass judgment, and all his power will be taken away and completely destroyed.27Then the sovereignty, power, and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him.”
Verses 23 - 25 gives the read the situation/the scenario: which after Babylon, Medes&Persia, Greece, & Rome, another system/power that incorporates some of their practices, but is more diverse and diabolical in it schemes. the passage says the power will destroy and crush everything in its path. It will wage war against God's Children and Speak against God and even attempt and did change God's laws and order of things.
But,this is the conjunction of verse 26, the court will pass judgement - or some versions render the text to read, the judgement/court shall sit or be convene - so as to execute swiftly this disrespectful power. The the rejoicing part, where the people of God will be given sovereignty, power, and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven; and, God's kingdom will last forever.
This passage, in retrospect, parallel Daniel vision with the stone cut out without hands, and it parallels John account in the book of Revelations with a more descriptive account of what this execution will consist of.
However, one must ask him or herself, given that God has to destroy this power so that His children can enjoy the benefits He has for them, and for His Kingdom to be established, can it be argued that the fourth beast is still in operation today? If yes, in what ways is the operation being manifested?
On the other hand, the Seventh - day Adventist theology of the investigative judgement must needs be revised. It is a concept from my assessment that is not sound biblically. According to (sdanet.org, 2015), the statement renders that prior to 1844, to that year, 1844, Jesus was in the heavenly sanctuary making intercession; and, post - 1844 He is performing investigative judgement or He is cleansing the heavenly sanctuary by "the final removal of the records of sins in the heavenly books" (p.321); but, by first examining the records "to determine who through repentance and faith in Him is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom" (p.321).
In other words, reader, you going to Jehovah for forgiveness in this era, is null and void [It don't make sense doing so]. The time has pass for Jesus to make intercession. Jesus is, in this moment, investigating the books before He comes again.
But the Bible teaches/instructs that one should come to God while the opportunity is open. For that day will come, when the trumpet shall sound and the dead in Christ shall rise first, and those that remain [those who are living] will be caught up with those resurrected and so shall they ever be with God. The Bible teaches that you must be apart of the first resurrection, for the second resurrection is where He will judge all unrepentant, disobedient, wicked sinners, who like the children of Israel, generation after generation, refused to listen to God and turn from their evil ways. The Bible says come now for Jesus is making intercession for you all now. Your belief in Jesus, and His death for you will be counted unto righteousness. The only condition, obey and grow in God. Do not return to your evil ways, for you will be lead away with the worker of iniquity. So teaches the Scriptures.
But as I said, I am in this moment, assess the Adventist documents on the matter. So I will return with a more comprehensive discourse, to further enlighten and empower God's children. For at the end of the day, what should happen is that those prominent in the church in light of the evidence presented, so apologise that they have given their believers a skewed interpretation of Scripture and this what we will do from this point forward to ensure that it doesn't happen again. For believe it or not, there are church members who teach other these concepts without they of themselves studying it in depth first. This leaves a bad precedence and fanaticism continues to breed and grow.
God bless beloved
Thank you brother Garth, first, I want to say to you, the way you put words together bro. is off the hook.. you write so beautifully...
I respect your views, but your views on what the SDA Church believe are wrong...
Garth: "there are many persons who believe that a concept/doctrine that has been perpetuated for generations is of sound Bible base. They, like some persons of the Catholic system, for example, have not given way to a thorough investigation of the matter."
Garth: "It is a concept from my assessment that is not sound biblically. According to (sdanet.org, 2015), the statement renders that prior to 1844, to that year, 1844, Jesus was in the heavenly sanctuary making intercession; and, post - 1844 He is performing investigative judgement or He is cleansing the heavenly sanctuary by "the final removal of the records of sins in the heavenly books" (p.321); but, by first examining the records "to determine who through repentance and faith in Him is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom" (p.321)..."
Garth: "In other words, reader, you going to Jehovah for forgiveness in this era, is null and void [It don't make sense doing so]. The time has pass for Jesus to make intercession. Jesus is, in this moment, investigating the books before He comes again."
My brother you are right, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.... why would you believe SDA teach there is no more intercession from Jesus for us after 1844?
your "assessment" is wrong on what we believe.. yes, maybe a more comprehensive study on your part is needed brother, because this is what the Church teaches...
EGW: "The blood of Jesus is pleading with power and efficacy for those who are backslidden, for those who are rebellious, for those who sin against great light and love. Satan stands at our right hand to accuse us, and our Advocate stands at God’s right hand to plead for us. He has never lost a case that has been committed to Him. We may trust in our Advocate; for He pleads His own merits in our behalf.... He is making intercession for the most lowly, the most oppressed and suffering, for the most tried and tempted ones. With upraised hands He pleads, “I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands.” Isaiah 49:16.
I would I might sound the glad note to earth’s remotest bounds. “If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” Oh, precious redemption! How broad this great truth is—that God for Christ’s dear sake, forgives us the moment we ask Him in living faith, believing that He is fully able!"
EGW: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25.
Christ is the connecting link between God and man. He has promised His personal intercession by employing His name. He places the whole virtue of His righteousness on the side of the suppliant. Christ pleads for man, and man, in need of divine help, pleads for himself in the presence of God, using the power of the influence of the One who gave His life for the world."
EGW: "As the prayers of the sincere and contrite ones ascend to heaven Christ says to the Father, “I will take their sins. Let them stand before You innocent.” As He takes their sins from them, He fills their hearts with the glorious light of truth and love.
Our need of Christ’s intercession is constant. Day by day, morning and evening, the humble heart needs to offer up prayers to which will be returned answers of grace and peace and joy. “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually.” Our high Calling p.49
Brother Garth, These statements...
"He is making intercession for the most lowly, the most oppressed and suffering, for the most tried and tempted ones."
"Christ is the connecting link between God and man. He has promised His personal intercession by employing His name..."
"Our need of Christ’s intercession is constant."
...shows that the Church believes there is still intercession for us after 1844... again, the reason it doesn't make sense to you is because what you believe about the SDA doctrine is not true.
Again, you think SDA believe after 1844,
Garth: "The time has pass for Jesus to make intercession. Jesus is, in this moment, investigating the books before He comes again."
But the Church really teaches, yes, He's investigating the books at this moment, also....
EGW: ""He is making intercession for the most lowly, the most oppressed and suffering, for the most tried and tempted ones."
EGW: "The work of Christ in the sanctuary above, presenting his own blood each moment before the mercy seat, as he makes intercession for us, should have its full impression upon the heart, that we may realize the worth of each moment. Jesus ever liveth to make intercession for us;..."Sabbath-School Worker October 1, 1893
So you see from the statement made in 1893, well after 1844, that the Church believes Jesus is making intercession for us right now... and carrying on the work of Judgment at the same time.. Jesus can walk and chew gum at the same time brother.. nothing is impossible for Him. As we know, he is our High Priest and he is also our Advocate, making intercession for us daily.
Yeah, check out the Adventist documents and see if you can come up with something that is true next time.. and Trust me, I'm fair, if there is something that don't sit well or untrue, I will say your right brother Garth, and thank you for showing me the truth. Right now, despite how beautifully you put your words together, you haven't showed anything but a misunderstanding of what is being taught by the SDA Church.
Beautifully stated, I think you just did away with the teaching of the Investigative Judgment.
Keith: " Beautifully stated, I think you just did away with the teaching of the Investigative Judgment."
Oh really? please show me how my brother...
Seventh-day Adventists teach the following regarding the Investigative Judgment:
1. Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, and began a new phase of ministry. This ministry was foreshadowed by the Levitical Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:16-33).
2. The first phase of the "Day of Atonement" is called the "cleansing of the Sanctuary." It involves a pre-Advent investigation and judging of God's people to determine whose sins will be removed from the Sanctuary. Christ started this judgment in 1844, beginning with Adam and Eve and progressing chronologically down through the ages, judging all of the dead believers. At some point, near the end of time, Christ will begin judging living believers. During this Investigative Judgment God either blots out the sins of the believer, or he removes the name of the believer from the Book of Life.
As during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore involves a work of investigation or judgment that reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment. This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost...1
3. Whenever one of God's followers commits a sin and asks foregiveness from God, that sin is transferred into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly Sanctuary. It remains there, in the Sanctuary, until the Investigative Judgment is completed. At the end of time, all the sins of the righteous are transferred from the Sanctuary onto the Scapegoat, who is Satan. Satan then suffers the final punishment for his sins and all the sins of the righteous.
In your own words, show me how... point out what you would like me to see, and how it shows I "did away with the teaching of the Investigative Judgment." from what I wrote brother Garth.
you believe in a pre-Advent judgment right?
Yes I believe there will be a pre-Advent judgment. I believe Hebrews 7-9 gives beautiful account of what is happening in heaven now.
1844, was a great disappointment when people realized they had followed a false prediction. Hiram Edison came up with an alternative theory after a vision in a corn field the following day.
If the date was wrong(date setting being against bible principles) could it be that Hiram Edison's theory (not based on bible principles) could also be wrong?
I feel scripture in Hebrews give a clear explanation of the sanctuary and opposes the Investigative Judgment.
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
This thread was pretty much about the Investigative judgement also, notwithstanding the title