"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions" Great Controversy p. 588.
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord" Isaiah 1:18. If there was ever a man that deserved to go strait to heaven at the point of death it was Jesus Christ! Yet on resurrection morning Jesus said to Mary Magdalene, "Touch Me not, for I am not yet ascended to My Father" John 20:17.
The Son of God who is our example in all things died, was buried, and then after He was resurrected went to heaven. So it is with the Christians.
Then go to heaven
The Apostle Peter who was filled with the Holy Spirit spoke concerning King David; word's too clear to misunderstand. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the Patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us to this day" Acts 2:29. For David is NOT ascended into the heavens.
The dead Christians are not ascended into heaven praising God on the streets of gold. "The dead praise not the Lord" Psalms 115:17. According to the prophet David, "In death there is no remembrance of Thee" Psalms 6:5. In fact, the dead have no thoughts or feelings either good or bad while in the grave. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... Also their love and their hatred, and their envy is now perished" Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. "His breath goeth forth he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" Psalms 146:4.
The dead do not communicate with the living! In fact the dead cannot haunt houses either! "He that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more, he shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him anymore" Job 7:9,10.
The fact that all such apparitions are not the dead is the clear teaching. Yet thousands of genuine apparitions appear every month around the globe. What are these? All such apparitions of dead loved ones are demons..
"There is a strong inclination among Catholics who feel constrained to admit the genuineness of spirit-messages to assert that these are produced by the agency of the devil; that the message does not come from any departed friend, but from an evil spirit personating him. We know that Satan is capable of transforming himself into "an angel of light," and he is presumably capable of transforming himself into the likeness of my Uncle John, of mimicking his voice and of reproducing his handwriting. If it be objected that the message contains high and lofty and even Christian sentiments, it may be replied that the evil spirit is deliberately adopting this role in order to deceive us and lead us on so as to ruin our souls."(Donald Hole, Spiritualism and the Church 1929, pp. 65,67.)
Satan used a demon-possessed witch to bring up a familiar spirit that looked and sounded just like the prophet Samuel to bring about the destruction of King Saul (1 Samuel 28). Now in these last days, Satan is using apparitions of dead saints to deceive the world for its destruction. Do not be deceived the Bible says, "Neither have they any portion under the sun" Ecclesiastes 9:6. The Bible says, "the just shall live by his faith" not by what he sees and hears. We cannot depend on our five senses to understand what is truth, rather only in the Word of God! The Word of God condemns all who attempt to contact the dead. For it is in fact communication with devils
"The Catholic Church would not forbid her children to have anything at all to do with this insidious form of necromancy unless she was satisfied that harm only and no good comes out of it. Her experience of Spiritualism covers nearly two thousand years, and she seems to regard it, not as a means of getting into communion with saints, but as a snare trapping you into communion with devils(Bernard Vaughan, Foreword, in Elliot O';Donnell, The Menace of Spiritualism (London: T. Werner Laurie, ), pp. 13.)
"The Romans at first buried their dead in family catacombs, which were excavated outside the city walls and protected by law, but later Romans preferred cremation. The Christians continued the practice of interring the dead in Catacombs, which they called koimetaria, or "sleeping places," to suggest, that for a Christian, death was merely sleep before resurrection."(Funk and Wagnall's Encyclopedia, Article on, Catacombs.)
At death man is asleep in the grave not knowing anything nor having any thoughts until the resurrection. There to awake to either everlasting life, of everlasting destruction. "The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28,29. The Bible refers to death as a sleep 66 times. Clearly this is what happens at death! Christians "Sleep in Jesus'; Thessalonians 4:14. "Consider and hear, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, LEST I SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH" Psalm 13:3
Deut. 31:16__"Thou (Moses) shall sleep with thy fathers"
Sam. 7:12__"Thou (David) shalt sleep with thy fathers"
Kings 1:21__ "The king shall sleep with his fathers"
Kings 2:10__ "So David slept with His fathers"
Job 3_13__ "I should have slept"
Job 7:21__ "Now shall I sleep"
Psalm 76:5__ "They have slept their sleep"
Jer. 51:39__ "And sleep a perpetual sleep."
Daniel 12:2__ "Them that sleep in the dust."
Matthew 9:24__ "Is not dead, but sleepeth."
I Cor. 15:6__ "some are fallen asleep"
I Cor. 15:51__ "we shall not all sleep"
Thess. 4:13 "concerning them which are asleep"
II Peter 3:4 "Since the fathers fell asleep"
John 11:11,14__ "He saith unto them, our friend Lazarus sleepeth... Then Jesus spake unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
I see your list that says
Then go to heaven
I believe you left out one stage
Then go to heaven
Jesus did sleep for some 30 odd hours The saint's sleep may perhaps be longer But the stages are the same.
Thanks for sharing
Sleep is used for death. It doesn't appear to be a separate state
See: John 11:11-14
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
Thanks for the correction I was thinking more of a passage like this:
1Ki 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.
Where we find David sleeping his fathers and have done so for a long time waiting for the resurrection. could you see sleep as a time of waiting?
Elijah said, "could you see sleep as a time of waiting?"
Perhaps Job answers that question best. In relation to death he says, "If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness." (Job 17:13)
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." (Job 14:14)
So death can be described as sleep and a time of waiting - but, of course, not in the conscious sense of actively waiting.
Thanks, JohnB that is as I was understanding it.
Well said gentlemen, could I ask the question then why are Jews different in their theology on the state of the dead, than Adventists are, who are spiritual Israel?
I don't understand when you listen to rabbi speak of the dead, they say the soul never dies. They say we have a part in us that is immortal.
I find they are mixing terms, ruwach is the Holy Spirit who empowers the breath of life from the Father in us, and together in relationship with the Holy Spirit, we become nephesh, ie: a living soul. But Jews mix these words, and say the ruwach is the soul..
The only immortal divine part in relationship with us is the Holy Spirit. Once we sleep, the Holy Spirit leaves us, and returns back to GOD, taking our recorded character with us. It's difficult talking to Jews over this matter.
Hello, Rob good to see you back. I am sorry to say that the pace of discussions has not improved since you were here last.
You pose the question; "could I ask the question then why are Jews different in their theology on the state of the dead"
All I can say is that the Jews did not accept the teachings of Jesus they did not even accept Him as a prophet, and I guess this is why those viewpoints diverge, Jesus taught us about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This understanding is and was totally foreign to the Jews.
Great to see you my friend Elijah, yes I wish we good have our passionate days back. I miss talking to SDA people. Do you fancy emailing together on some important themes?
Funny as you say, Jesus was a Jew, he spoke to Jews very differently a theology they never new about? or did they but rejected it?
Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded "translated" unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
I am always puzzled by this verse, perhaps you can help me. The Greek word used there means to translate. Why would a Jew have to translate Hebrew writings to a Jew? Was Kleopas Greek? The other disciple, was He a Jew, could they not read Hebrew? Of course they could, but I find it amazing, but Jews do not acknowledge this , that Jesus a Jew is translating the Hebrew to other Jews, about Himself.
Jews on other forums, run by Jeff Benner, mock my attempts to find out what Jesus was translating about Himself...
What's your idea on this one?
Ge 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD. (KJV)
Ge 49:18 I have waited for thy Yeshua-YHWH. (my attempt)
Some Jews say the prefix "lamed" means "my or thy" . Can we be certain, after all according to Jeff Benner, the "lamed" means "authority" in other letter combinations. We assume the language grammar rules remain unchanged over time.
These Jews say ancient Hebrew pictographs never existed in Moses time.
But according to Jeff Benner's research, they did. Like Miles Jones U Tube video work on rocks showing sandal carved with three strokes... what letter is this? "kuff" in Ancient Hebrew, not modern Hebrew.
So my humble attempt to read this Ancient language, now dead, is
Ge 49:18 I have waited 'for the authority of' Yeshua-YHWH
But debate aside, it is indeed puzzling, Jesus a Jew, translates the Hebrew to other Jews, who can't see Yeshua in the OT.
God bless your time here Elijah
Rob said, "why are Jews different in their theology on the state of the dead"
Which, if you don't mind, I would shorten further to, "why are Jews different in their theology"?
One has to consider the effect that the Babylonian captivity had on the thinking of Israel. The religion of Israel, when the Messiah arrived, was not the same as the original religion - hence His teaching in regards to the state of the dead and the kharmic idea that people were rich or suffering due to their sinfulness or lack thereof.
So, it may well be that Jesus did, indeed, have to "translate" to His followers so that they could understand the truth about the religion that they had professed to follow. However, it is "translate" by implication - the Peshitta translates it as both expound and interpret - whilst the Greek (διερμηνευσεν) is translated as "explain thoroughly".
There were many ideas that Jesus had to explain to the Jews in much the same way that we, as SDAs, have to explain much to the other Christian churches.
Good to see you are still lurking here, rob. :-)
To Rob only:
Regarding Luke 24:27;
A key verse is 32: "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Expound is the meaning I believe therefore, not interpret in its strict sense of translation of one language into another. Jesus expounded, meaning to present and explain. Jesus explained every verse from the old testament about himself. Boy, we would all love to have that teaching would we not?
Its good to see replies from old acquaintance's.
Thanks John B, that was well said.
Thanks James, that was well written too.
We all know EGW says Jesus lead Israel out in the Exodus, yet His Name is so well hidden, that Jews cannot see His name there in the Hebrew.
I don't know if either of you gentlemen are into the Ancient Hebrew script Moses wrote in his time, but it is different to modern Hebrew, but the letters are more or less preserved in the Hebrew script. This itself I see as something planned by God. God hides truth for a reason, we all ponder confusion. And this "translating expounding " thing Jesus did, is something we too need to do more as well.
If you don't understand, try reading Jeff Benner's Ancient Hebrew Research Website for a few hours. Or U Tube video Miles Jones research work on Mt Sinai... maybe people are now waking up to the work of Ron Wyatt... again God is bringing out new light He has preserved all this time...
This recent find of Miles for example, around Mt Sinai, shows a sandal with three marks on it... Is this a modern letter in Hebrew ? No
It is the Ancient Hebrew letter for "kuff" the "K". The cuff it seems applies to the palms of the hands, as well as the arch of the foot. I didn't know this as well, not sure what others think. But such pictures are all over the area.
It is perhaps the greatest proof, among others, that Israel wrote and spoke Ancient Hebrew. This is what I think Jesus was expounding to the Jews, this language and its meanings is now lost and dead, because of Modern Hebrew. Just IMO at this stage. All this is recent research. Shalom