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I'm sure this topic has come up before. First off I know God does not tolerate sin, however in the Old Testament it seems God acted immediately with punishment against sin. Today it seems mankind is allowed to do many bad things before God will act or perhaps this is just mere perception cause we live in these times and don't have the benefit to see outside of time yet. What do you think?


Personally , I feel God was closer to the planet in the old testament days so  it was kind of like a parent reacting to a child sinning right before there eyes. Since that time I think God has slowly been pulling his presence away from the earth and it's more like a parent being a bit further away so perhaps that punishment of sin is not as quick but it still comes.  I think God is showing even more mercy due to Christ dying on the cross as all have been forgiven of sin if they repent and accept Jesus.  God may be simply  allowing time for even the worst sinners of our age to repent before handing down strict punishment since they do not have the benefit of seeing and speaking with God as those in the old testament did.

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MsMS. I am not a part of the 144,000. I sin. And continue to sin.

N Him


That is your choice.  Please, do not take offense as what I said or what I am about to say, for no offense is intended.  I am merely attempting to point out what I have discovered in my study and not brag or make any digs at you or anyone else. 

As to being part of the 144,000, that I am not addressing, only the idea that "continue to sin." 


See, the problem is that we have jumped to conclusions about the nature of sin.  For a more complete discussion on this, go to my website: and the section on "What is Sin."  That will present much more then I can present here. 


See, one statement of Ellen White has been taken out of context, misunderstood and then used as a touchstone.  Here is one of many, some 20 or more or less, statements that all say more or less the same thing.

    "Now, we want to understand what sin is--that it is the transgression of God's law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. Therefore we see that those who claim to be led of God, and go right away from Him and His law, do not search the Scriptures. But the Lord will lead His people; for He says that His sheep will follow if they hear His voice, but a stranger will they not follow. Then it becomes us to thoroughly understand the Scriptures. And we will not have to inquire whether others have the truth, for it will be seen in their characters."  {FW 56.1}  Also see: GC 492.2; OHC 141.3; 1SM 320.1; 7BC 951.3; 4SP 316.2 etc.

The problem that has caused the misunderstanding is the definition of the word: "Definition."  See, this word can legitimatly mean at least two different things.

  1. Define - as in a dictionary definition.
  2. Define - as in identify.

Most assume that the first is what she meant, which is not the case as there are a minimum of 3 other definitions of sin in the Bible.  See Romans 14:23, last half: James 4:17 and 1 John 5:17.


However, what was intended as the meaning of her statement, judging from all the evidence, is that it is through the transgression of the law, sin can be identified in our life.  Notice this passage.

    "What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."  [8] But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead.  [9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died."  Romans 7:7-9 (ESV)  

Here in Romans 7, Paul is very clear that it is only when our actions are compared with the law of God, that we can see that sin is dwelling in our life and seek to have it removed, something only God can do.


So, the only way we can define, i.e. identify the presence of, sin is when we compare it to the law of of God.  When we see that we are transgressing that law, it is prima facia evidence that the spirit of rebellion, i.e. sin, is present in our life.  Most of the chapter of Romans 7 is addressing this issue.


When we have a biblical definition of sin, then we can understand the biblical definition of perfection.  Then things make much more sense.  There is much more, but this is the core of the issue.


Maranatha :)



Ray. I don't get offended easily. I usually just laugh it off .  I try to understand each individual poster and understand their past and walk that may have contributed to the things they say. It's not like I believe even a fraction of what I read on this forum.
Perfection of character is attained through exercise of the faculties of the mind, in times of supreme test, by obedience to every requirement of God's law. Men in positions of trust are to be instrumentalities in the hands of God for promoting His glory, and in performing their duties with the utmost faithfulness they may attain perfection of character. {2SM 161.2}
Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to
the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foot-hold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of himself, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." [JOHN 14:30.] Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept his Father's commandments, and there was no sin in him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. {GC88 622.4}



Sin is like AIDS.  While one person may get the disease, everyone they contact is a potential AIDS victim. Not just that, but they can pass on AIDS to others even when they themselves do not get it.  So too with sin.  Once the sin "virus" is initiated, as it was with Satan in heaven.  Everyone who came in contact with Him either choose to go along with him or refused to go along with him.  However, everyone they came in contact can potentially catch that sin virus. 


HOW?  In just this way.  God made each of us a free moral agent.  This means that we can choose who we will serve.  One might in fact say that the seeds of sin lie in each heart of free moral agent.  Becasue if they could not choose to sin, they would not be a free moral agent.  With this special gift came the potential for sin/rebellion agains God.  However, to be able to have the love of a free moral agent, the chance had to be taken that that free moral agent might choose to love someone else.


Why did Satan rebel to begin with?  No one knows the complete answer, probably not even Satan himself.  But, it was a free choice that he made.  So too with those angels who sided with him, humans who have sided with him and even those who have not, until they have developed the level of trust in God where they will consistently choose to serve God in ever detail, they are vulnerable to sin. 


Sin is not all caused by Satan.  The Bible says this.

     "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,"  2 Tim. 4:3 (ESV) 

     "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires."  2 Peter 3:3 (ESV) 

    "These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage." Jude 1:16 (ESV)  

These people are not tempted to sin by Satan, they are carried away by their own sinful desires, or lusts as the KJV states it.  They have made that choice to do what they want to do, no matter what God's word says.  See, until a person is soley gone over to Satan's side and become his slave  See Romans 6:16, they can choose who they will follow.  Satan cannot force them to rebel against God.


Oh, he may put them in positions where their human wisdom fails them and they make mistakes.  But, when they confess those wrong choices, God is faithful to forgive them and cleanse them from all unrighteousness.  Don't overlook that little word "ALL."  


Just like Satan was carried away by his sinful desires, after all, there was no "Devil" to tempt him.  He was a free moral agent.  He, like 2/3rds of the angels could have chosen to submit to divine love.  But he choose to rebel.  The idea that: "The Devil made me do it" is a cop out, not a reason.  We choose to sin because we wanted to sin.  The devil cannot force anyone to go against his will until that will is totally turned over to his control.


The reason that sin will not arise the second time is this.

    "In the final execution of the judgment it will be seen that no cause for sin exists. When the Judge of all the earth shall demand of Satan, "Why hast thou rebelled against Me, and robbed Me of the subjects of My kingdom?" the originator of evil can render no excuse. Every mouth will be stopped, and all the hosts of rebellion will be speechless. . . . The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe. . . . Never will evil again be manifest. Says the Word of God, "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. . . . A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them."  {FLB 71.3}  
     "The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom."  {GC 504.1} 

The reason sin will not arise the second time is becasue the universe has seen the ultimate demonstration of the love of God in contrast to the demonic nature of sin.  This includes the ones who are saved.  Their love for God is so great that they will never even want to go contrary to His instructions.  His goals and laws will be written in their heart and never again will they go contrary to that law of love.




One time when just a little shaver, I was left home to care for my still younger sisters while mother and dad were in classes at college.  Mother had taught me to cook various things, one of them being oatmeal cookies.  I had backed them many times. 


So, on this day, I got a hankering for some oatmeal cookies.  However, since mother was not there, I thought I would make them extra good.  I would put two cups of sugar in the receipe instead of the one it called for, which I thought I did.


The lucious smells that came from that oven made it most difficult to wait.  But, I did and when they were done, I had to wait still longer until they cooled.  I could hardly wait to eat on of my special creations.  That is until I placed one of those still warm morsels in my mouth.  When I bit into it, I immediatly spit it out.  I went to check the "sugar" jar and found that it has salt in it.  I had put two cups of salt into those cookies.  I can honesly say that I have never done that since.  One lesson was enough.  Now, I test the "sugar" to be sure it is sugar before I put in what I am baking.

This is the way it is with sin.  For those who love God, one such mistake is enough for a lifetime.


Satan sought to regain heaven after his fall, but he could not be taken in because he had rebelled against God in the very presence of God.  There was no more of God's goodness that could be shown to him.  Therefore, Satan was forever lost. 


Consider this example.  Let's say that a woman is unfaithful to her husband.  And let's say that she invites her lover to come and be with her in her bed in front of her husband.  Could that marriage ever be saved?  Not at all.  She would have committed the ultimate act of betrayal by not only being unfaithful, but flaunting her unfaithfulness before her husband.


This is what Satan did in heaven.  He not only flaunted his rebellion, but he got 1/3rd of the angels to follow him in rebellion, right in heaven itself.  He even did worse than the unfaithful wife in the illustration (which is what Israel did to God).  As people have experienced such unfaithfulness to themselves, and experienced the hurt that has caused, they will never ever want to hurt God the way they have been hurt.


Does this help?


Maranatha :)





This is the heart of the issue.  When those who love God supremely, remember what sin did to Jesus, all room for sin will be gone and we will lovingly serve every desire of our master.


Maranatha :)

Something caught my attention from this subject. Since the 144,000 are the only ones will be caught up in heaven alive because they are sinless, what happened to those who didn't make it because of one sin left in them? Are they gonna suffer in a lake of fire, or they are not going to be resurrected to join the others in a lake of fire?


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