My church Pastor today said the judgements in Exodus 21 to 24 were no longer binding for Adventists today?
In our Sabbath school class we spoke how we follow laws too strictly...that's true, some of us believe ye can't even dip in cool water on a hot Sabbath afternoon....does Scripture really make these laws?
Than there's the other extreme, that the laws are all gone, and we have freedom in Jesus to live as He wants us to live in love....love without rules of any kind...
Most of us, especially the youth are confused...
So what about these judgements ? A judgement is a teaching based on the Ten commandments aren't they ? Isn't this what SOP said ?
Ex 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Today governments see this rule as child maintenance....
Ex 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
How many homes would be kinder if children follow this rule....I am assuming your parents are worthy to be followed kindly....for they are supposed to be models of our heavenly parents.
Ex 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Doesn't Jesus renew this judgement rule differently in the NT ?
Mt 5:38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
So clearly the judgement is renewed so the older one are not abolished , only given the correct meaning by Jesus ? This example tells me we are to look at the OT principles in NT settings and learn to adapt the principles under different times of love.
Ex 21:35 And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.
Could this rule apply in principle to tractors or cars in a renewed setting today?
Ex 22:6 If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.
Compensation laws, these too are still binding as a principle today too aren't they ?
Ex 22:16 ¶ And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Shameful marriages are binding too today aren't they ?Why is it the SDA dis-fellowships SDA virgins for having sex between themselves for the first time? Why don't we follow the torah judgement rules?
Ex 23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
We are terribly rude to strangers coming to our churches in rough clothes and manners?
The torah has other teachings too, compost toilet teachings, water hygiene teachings, building house teachings, agricultural teachings, clothing teachings, sowing seed teachings, slave teachings, feast teachings, sacrifice teachings, sin-offering teachings, worship teachings, food nutrition teachings, tithe teachings, Sabbath preparation day teachings, and so on....Are all these laws binding too ?Or do we just pick and choose the ones we like ?
Or maybe we are so sick of torah teachings we like to follow Jesus without any rules of any kind, and love Jesus in the world we live, which would be culturally where we live, a part of the world and the love of the world, that's what culture means, how communities of people do things....or are we supposed to be a different nation, spiritual Hebrews doing things as the OT and NT says, not like Jews, or Israel on old, but as Christian Hebrews for the promised Israel in heaven?
Or maybe we just drop the Hebrew culture altogether and live as best we do in our English or Spanish or German world following the culture of SDA Adventism given to us by SOP, which over time has become American in culture, after all the origin of Adventism is from the USA.
"..the principles of torah teachings are still invaluable for us today, wherever we can find them applicable as a practical application in our daily life with Jesus. How's that ?"
This is a statement that I can definitely agree with, Rob. Thanks and God bless!
I would break down the 10 Commandments into it's two groups. The first four relate to our relationship with God, the last six our relationship with each other.
To further illustrate this:
Luke 10:25-28, "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
Daniel I am surprised by your answer being of a Jewish background....
26 “What is written in the TORAH?” he replied. “How do you read it?” Notice what Hebrew words Jesus says....there is no single Hebrew word for the Ten Commandments is there my friend ?
Notice The Jew answered correctly as any Jew would understanding the TORAH is made of many laws, including moral laws, ceremonial laws, health laws, civil laws, building laws, hygiene laws, food laws, agricultural laws and feast holiday laws, just to name a few....
Besides this thread is about the judgements, why do we as SDA people ignore them....a judgement by definition is HOW one SHOULD read the TEN COMMANDMENT laws in practical applications of daily life ? Am I correct in saying this ? Is that what the judgements mean ?
I had no idea the finger of God wrote all those things on the two tablets of stone? You do not see the elegance of the 10 Commandments being broke down into two key concepts? The expert of the law knew even this. They knew that before Jesus walked this earth veiled in human flesh.
Deuteronomy 6:5, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."
Leviticus 19:18, "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."
The elements were always there. So, this Teacher of the Law knew how the Ten Commandments stood and what their elements comprised. There was no New Testament then, it had yet to be written.
Oh Sorry, I stand corrected...I didn't realize Jews see torah in this way...my understanding is they saw all the laws as torah, with the ten commandments as special....yes special written by the finger of God, the others were only written in ink on parchment....
QUOTE: "The expert of the law knew even this.
Can you supply Jewish website link for this please? I would love to have this authority included for my own information...always wanted a Jewish link where they saw the ten commandments as special laws in the torah...
Current Judaism? Simply talk to a Rabbi. It is sad really. The old problems of when Jesus walked the earth still persist. There is a confusion as to whether there is any hope after death. There is still, (among the Hasidic anyway), some 662 or so extra laws to insure that the 10 are kept. Laws upon laws upon laws.
I get confused among that lot by the JW I mentioned earlier, when he asked where I went to church and was astounded I could travel on the Sabbath. He actually tried to lecture me that I was wrong. I guess to Him, not eating unclean foods and keeping the Sabbath mean a Jew to him. Ironically, however, like Adventists, like Judaism, he reckons a day is even to even. Also, He believes that the lunar calendar is the correct calendar. And in my mind, the lunar calendar is also what was originally intended, not a solar or Julian calendar. However, the months don't coincide with the current calendar and make it confusing to keep up with.
No Daniel I am not trying to be a Jew, though I do believe we should be Hebrew Christians...Ok so you have no website link....
My understanding is the term torah refers to "teachings" and includes all "teachings in Scripture" both moral and ceremonial laws and others as well....only the context will tell you which one is especially spoken of, and unless the context does not say, than all "Teachings" are meant...
Ps 119:1 ¶ ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 ¶ Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Verses like these say the torah is broad term for all ordinances, commandments and teachings...
Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
This is understood to be the ten commandment laws, but the one quoted here
Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
How does that figure ?
Ro 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
And here Paul quotes the ten commandment law, but where does "dost thou commit sacrilege" come from ?
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Again how does that figure ?
I get the impression from Scripture that when torah is spoken it really includes all the teachings, but in some of context the ten commandments are especially considered.
How do you see Scriptures used in this way ?
As Adventists we tend to "dislike laws" but the torah was never meant to be legal court like laws, they are the teachings showing you the path to follow....Paul talks about the spirit of torah, not the letter of torah...but we tend to go the full extreme and avoid all torah teachings, and our love is basically without any actions...
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Just because we follow the practical applications of torah in the Holy Spirit, does NOT mean the torah is to be ignored or forgotten....the torah still remains, its the way we approach its teachings that has changed...people aren't stoned for picking sticks on Sabbath anymore for example, but if you love Jesus you will be ready for His Sabbath time, is the principle.
People who say you can't swim on a Sabbath because its wrong are missing the plot and steeped in legalism...In Adventist boarding school we chopped firewood on Sabbath and cooked the food with a wood fire...the rich nations switch on electricity which comes from coal chopped up and thrown into a fire as well...somehow we have to stop this "hate for laws", and "nit-picking" and start appreciating the principles of torah... like those in the judgements for instance....all the teachings...
So, how do you define Torah, how do you reckon it now? Do you include the ceremonial and civil laws as well? Can you simply give your wife a certificate of divorce because she displeases you, or has that changed?
Hebrews are Jews, Rob.
Wine = doctrine New wine for new wine skins, is NOT creating new doctrines in a brand new setting, the same old doctrines in a renewed setting. When Jesus spoke of torah, he upheld torah, never abolished torah.
The early Christian meeting in Acts 15, reduced torah requirements, but they never abolished torah....
The applications of torah as principles still remain for us today, as useful applications for love now matter where we live...
For example the torah speaks we should not wear plastic and cotton blends as they disturb the health on our skin (static electricity).The best septic systems are earth compost ones, not green house gas emissions from anaerobic water digestive systems. The best cure for cancer is plant nutrition, not chemo, drugs and surgery....two virgins having sex together were not to be dis-fellowshipped from the Church...this is a judgement we fail to use these days...in fact all the ones I have quoted here we ignore...
Daniel, where does Scripture say you can divorce your wife simply because she displeases you ? Or where does it say you can't cool off in the water on a hot summers Sabbath day ? The Jews were nit picking Talmud makers, I find the torah are principles with broad attitudes for practical living.
@Gabriel, sure a Jew by definition may be a Hebrew in some people's eyes, but Paul says not all Israel are Israel, meaning not all Jews have the concept of Hebraic salvation....and I find many of us are Christians by name only, but we aren't saved as Christian's...Ellen White says we are spiritual Israel, that means to be saved we must live as Hebrew Christian's...following the principles of torah, (not the letter of torah) but the spirit of torah in a renewed setting.
Hope this helps
Gabe, he is fascinated because I am 25 percent German Jew.
@Daniel if your can't quote Scripture to validate your theories of faith, than mocking people is totally uncalled for....I only come to AO to do my bit with Jesus, helping others see Sola Scriptura, you seem to just ridicule people for no reason...if my theory of faith is wrong or so different from yours, show me from Scripture, that's all I ask,.... let's not change the subject at hand and mock each other....My faith can be supported by Scripture, otherwise I would be here on AO at all....
I have presented some powerful discrepancies on this thread about the ten commandment law, which at the same time included other torah, and you cannot make a reasonable statement about those texts.
Therefore my understanding is the entire torah was not abolished, and where it is practical to do so, we should be upholding the application of principles from the letters of the torah, in a spiritual way.
I don't have any interest in you being 25% Jewish, the Bible speaks only to those who are willing to be saved, and whether you like it or not, those saved are Hebrew Christians, whatever that term means. Last time I checked the names of the tribes in the Zion city that were Hebrew names.