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To Man Flower Grow

I am compelled to share what my humble knowledge of the scriptures says about the matter you have shared in your discussion. I opted to post a new discussion as a reply so that this post will not be buried under even more replies from the users of this site.

Let us start on a common ground. You may interpret the text upon posting as someone angry, sad, happy, or whatever manner of emotion this may seem to you. But I am hoping that this reply will sound as CALM and as ENLIGHTENING as possible. Not that this post will prove you or me wrong but that it may send my message from me to you in the most loving manner that I can possibly hope to do.

This post is by no means a way to change your way of thinking for it is not my job to do so. No, not in the very least for it is by the spirit that we are changed.

I bid you blessings and good health.

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  • Your claim on the word PAIS which is pronounced as PAHEECE

I would like to humbly share my opinion on this matter base on concrete evidences and resources (as far as I am concerned and my little knowledge) that the word PAIS by no means does not refer to any homosexual relations or any tint of it (I hope I don't sound angry at all)

The word PAIS occurs 24 times through the entire scriptures and everytime it is used it refers to the definition stated by the image above. The image above is a snapshot of my computer and e-sword feel free to download online.

Philisophically and mathematically and even biblically saying, IF SOMETHING IS TRUE IT HAS TO BE TRUE IN ALL CASES - only one counter example is required to disprove a claim that something is true but that counter example must be very solid.

(Smiling and calm) my point here that I would love to share (humbly of course) is that you wrote and qouted this

For many centuries before Matthew and Luke wrote their Gospels, the Greek word pais was commonly used to refer to the younger partner in a same sex relationship. The younger partner was often an adult male but was sometimes a teenager.

I on the other hand would like to share my humble opinion on your post. The text above says that PAIS WAS COMMONLY USED TO REFER TO THE YOUNGER PARTNER IN A SAME SEX RELATIONSHIP (I am not shouting when I pressed the capslock forgive me if it sounds like that).

The definition above about PAIS on the image I posted is based on bible scholar definition and years of study on WHAT and HOW greek or hebrew scriptures are interpreted in our modern language - the english language.

If that is the case, then it disproves your claim on referring to a same sex relationship. PAIS even refers to someone who serves a KING or even GOD. (still not shouting or anything like that keeping everything calm for this text)

  • Receive the entire scripture and do not build a doctrine on an isolated bible verse or story

The Seventh-Day Adventist Church of the General Conference (my church and I hope yours too) obeys this simple biblical rule and that is why it's doctrines are solid through the years.

I couldn't help but notice that your claims on the existence on homosexuality on this certain bible story do not contain any biblical references or whatsoever but instead a random explanation which we do not know the source.

One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Deutronomy 19:5

Our first doctrine of the SDA Church is about the SCRIPTURES and it plainly tells us one of the ways on how to use the scriptures through the prophet ISAIAH.

Isaiah 28:9-11King James Version (KJV)

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Deutronomy and Isaiah lays out a foundation on how to find God's message embedded in the bible. We do not assert or conclude something base on other people's opinion (although scholarly study of the bible is very helpful) nor should we create a doctrine on an isolated verse. We need witnesses or as Isaiah puts it, precepts upon precepts or simply saying - LET THE BIBLE EXPLAIN ITSELF.

So my brother in Christ, I humbly lay these reasons on scriptures upon you.

  • CHRIST IS OUR ULTIMATE MODEL NOT THE FRAILTIES OF ANY BIBLE CHARACTER

The failure of many who do not understand the word of God (that includes myself) is to look upon others and not Jesus.

1 John 2:6New International Version (NIV)

Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

I will not go down the endless argument of homosexuality and blah blah blah.

If we all claim to be Christians then why do we look at the CENTURION? Many bible characters failed in their stories.

Solomon was POLYGAMOUS

ABRAHAM, JACOB and a lineage of bible characters had disobeyed and did something wrong.

What most people do is look upon these faults and use them as excuses to justify there errors and then when confronted by the word of God they tend to despise whoever points out the error in their ways.

They tend to cover up and say IF GOD IS LIKE YOU THEN I DON'T LIKE CHURCH (for being reprimanded) or something like YOU ARE SO PREJUDICE AND YOU LACK LOVE

When DAVID was confronted by the prophet Nathan the prophet DID NOT SUGAR COAT his message and he sternly pointED out the fault of David.

But since DAVID WAS A MAN OF GOD, he DISPLAYED GOD'S CHARACTER moved by the HOLY Spirit and did not tend to excuse himself. Instead confessed and saw the folly in his ways.

AREN'T WE ALL CLAIMING TO BE CHRISTIANS? THEN WHY DON'T WE LOOK TO JESUS AND HIS LIFE AND MINISTRY?

WAS JESUS A HOMOSEXUAL? No, since it will violate the plan of salvation and a myriad of bible scriptures which I don't have time to post.

WAS JESUS BOASTFUL or HATEFUL? NO NO NO NO

What is my point? (I am not raising my tone in anger)

If we claim to be God's people though we stumble and fall we look upon the Savior and follow his examples and not the examples of the weak bible characters compared to the strength of our Savior Jesus Christ.

Upon writing this post a thought just occurred to me.

Jesus came to seek and save the lost but his pure and perfect character would clearly pierced through the soul of any imperfect person approaching him. I'm sure homosexuals existed in his time, but the question remains.

IN THE PRESENCE OF THE SAVIOR, WOULD ANY HOMOSEXUAL STILL EXCUSE AND DEFEND THEIR BEING HOMOSEXUAL KNOWING THAT THEY STAND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ALMIGHTY?

I leave that as it is.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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I may post more updates on this post but for now I hope I delivered my perspective on your post. I do not want to change you or your way of thinking for it is beyond me. It is only by the spirit of God that we are change.

Blessings be upon you and your family.

P.S.

My youngest brother is gay and I sometimes catch him watching gay porn in hiding so I am not prejudice against you being gay because it is burden enough for me to help my brother through Christ in his sexual issues but all I can do is share God's word I know I can't change my brother only Christ and His Spirit.

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Indeed Brother thank you for your effort. I was always of the opinion that Pais could not mean what it was claimed there. 

He is just making a fig-leaf covering for himself:

Gen 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Interestingly enough, the same spelling "pais" in Spanish, means country as in the country you live in.  For instance, "Mi pais es el EEU."  "My country is the United States."

Only going to reply to this part:

"Philisophically and mathematically and even biblically saying, IF SOMETHING IS TRUE IT HAS TO BE TRUE IN ALL CASES - only one counter example is required to disprove a claim that something is true but that counter example must be very solid."

Actually you are wrong there.

Especially biblically you are definitely wrong there with this claim.

The context of the word defines the meaning of the word and so many other things at once. You can not say as example that when this word only means once something else than the translated meaning is wrong thats not possible.

I will give you the best example there is:

Genesis 2: 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his צְלָעֹת (tsela), and closed up the flesh instead thereof

I am sure you recognize the text and fill in the Hebrew word with "rib".

Now lets look exactly: 

צְלָעֹת (tsela) has 41 occurrences in the bible.

40 times it is translated with "side" or "plank"

There is exactly 1 translation ever where the word means rib.

There is even absolute zero occurrences in other Hebrew texts which would translate צְלָעֹת (tsela) with rib.

Never ever.

Yet in Genesis 2:21 it means rib.

After your claim this can not possibly be so God didnt create Eve out of Adams rib....

Theologically and in the jewish torah there is in fact a slight difference between christianitys creation story and that of the jews. Torahs commentary speaks of "side" and defines the first "human being" as both genders or genderless. It is only in Christianity that the first human being becomes male and "side" becomes rib.

As you can see interpreting scripture like you did is not possible.

Theologically thats exactly the wrong stance on how to interpret scripture and translate it.

If we would follow your claim we would have to rewrite i think 75% of scriptures to find a matching text.

Regards

p.s.: and your caps lock stuff is unpleasing to the eyes and totally loses your point.

Especially since caps lock is considered yelling you might reconsider this caps locking thing for future as it does not in any form make you look "humble".

Your point being?

Or just acting up like the usual internet troll?

No need to show this off Heisenberg we know that by now already....

Nice off topic trolling Heisenberg...

I got one for you as well:

Male Headship and what it does in 1 picture:

Sad enough you think making jokes about it is funny.

Ah well just yet another internet troll only difference is you call yourself a SDA and a christian.

But than again your well in line with mainstream christians in the US considering 1 in 3 women will be victim of domestic violence in a country with 75% christian as their religion.

Male headship at its best..

Not my wife.  But, then again, you probably would be bent out of shape if I opened the door for you.  I have never raised a hand to my wife, nor ever will.

Yet you think its a topic to make fun of...

Not really much better since your indirectly supporting it this way.

Opening doors for women?  I do it all the time.

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