I think you are wrong,@stewart, or this Bible verse would not have been written:
But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let them listen, and whoever will refuse let them refuse; for they are a rebellious people.
Regardless on whether we want to be ready or not,the end will go on. What we should do is stop being rebellious and begin getting ready.
I think the reason that some like Doug ask for money is because many of us easily forget that these ministries do not run on thin air. It is easy to say "God will provide" and then keep our purse strings tight.
It seems to me that the thing that is forgotten is faith.
George Muller determined that he would work for God and that he would not ask for money but rely on prayer alone. He received the equivalent of c.$100,000,000 without needing to ask for money.
I met a brother who was working in SE Asia, he had set up orphanges across the region and was responsible for hepling many children. He worked according to Muller's method, never asking for money, and he was supported in all he did.
When my family and I were on the mission we found that where men were not able to help a prayer resolved problems - including one brother who said that he was praying, asking the Lord what he should do with his surplus, when my family came to his mind and he was directed to us as an answer to prayer. We informed him that at the same time we had been praying asking the Lord to solve our problem and that he was the answer to our prayer.
God's work is limited by our lack of faith.
This item is indeed newsworthy but it doesn't appear on Amazing Facts' news page, it appears on their donation page as a vehicle for soliciting funds. I noticed some time ago that in this respect our televangelists are just like all the others. One of the most laughable things about many "self-supporting" ministries is that they are exactly the opposite.
You do not understand what "self supporting" means. It was never intended to mean that God rains down money out of heaven or that one man supplies all the funds for the ministry. It means that it is supported by private donations rather than handouts from the conference. To call for support is not a lack of faith. It is a reminder to those who may lack faith.
Maybe we ought not teach our people to tithe then ? If faith never involves counsel and invitation then why call for an offering or tithe in the church. Is this what you are after JohnB ? Are you against calling for tithe and offerings ?
Colporteur, if I am to continue in any dialogue with you then please address the issue raised. Tithing is a completely separate issue and you are just confusing things.
For a good definition of "self-supporting" (and the words do mean what they are supposed to mean) then look at Paul's work. When necessary, he worked. As did others that Paul was working with. Your own definition may work for you but it is a contrived one. True "self-supporting" work is along the lines of George Muller's work.
@ JohnB This website is also asking for money. take a look
ATTENTION: THERE IS A HUGE DONATE SIGN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. Those who dislike this sigh take heed
Hmm... I don't see any equivalence on that site. Certainly, there is no "Urgent Prophecy Alert", no current news being used as a springboard for donations, neither is it a typical televangelist site, in fact nothing untoward, just a simple clickable banner.
Perhaps you don't understand the point that I have been making either?
So, to make this simple, let's see if I can break it down for you so that you can understand my point:
Amazing Facts is bringing an "Urgent" "Alert" in regard to prophecy. When I first saw this video some weeks ago I could not believe that it was real but as I listened to Tony Palmer revealing himself as "Elijah", listened to the Pope's message, saw the way it was received, I recognised that this was another important step being attempted that will cause these two denominations to reach across the abyss and clasp hands. It is prophecy being fulfilled and I believe that it is important for SDAs to realise that the other churches are still slowly travelling down the ecumenical road that leads to Rome.
So, it is a prophecy update for sure, whether it is actually an "Urgent Prophecy Alert" I'm not so sure - that seems to be over-egging the pudding.
However, this page's url begins "http://give.amazingfacts.org/". This is not the news page, not the "Urgent Prophecy Alert" page, it is the donations page. Halfway down the page this "Urgent Prophecy Alert" turns into the usual request for donations, having used this "Urgent Prophecy Alert" as a vehicle to ask for money.
That is what I object to. The use of this piece of important news as a piece of "prophecy candy" to get people to donate money. It's a scare tactic, "ooh, look out the Pope's comin' to get ya - quick, give me money" is how it comes across to me. Shannon summed it up quite well, it looks like a typical televangelist effort to part people from their money using fear as the motivator. Go to the actual Amazing Fact "News" page... it is not mentioned. This "Urgent Prophecy Alert" does not feature on the "News" page, only on the "Donations" page. So urgent, such an alert, that it doesn't even feature in the "News".
So, do you get the point? It is not asking for money that is the problem. Perhaps you neglected to read my previous post wherein I said, "This is an "Urgent Prophecy Alert" that is not posted on their news page but on their Donations page. IOW it is used as a vehicle for soliciting money. IMHO that cheapens the whole thing. It may be me being picky but as this is an "Urgent Prophecy Alert" I would expect this to be a news item - with a link to the donations page if they must use it to raise funds - but it isn't. Instead it is used a springboard for raising $250,000."
Now, I don't think I can make it any plainer than I have. I have stated exactly what I have a problem with several times over this thread (and several times in this post). If you, or anyone else is going to insist on continuing to misrepresent the point that I am making then carry on, up to you, but I'm really getting the impression that people are deliberately ignoring the point.
As I stated previously, Mark Finlay was able to report this in a spiritual way that ended up in an appeal to my heart not to my pocket. Why wasn't AF? I would expect this to be a news item - with a link to the donations page if they must use it to raise funds - but it isn't. Instead it is used a springboard for raising $250,000.
Hopefully you have got the point. If not, go back to the top, read, rinse and repeat.
You are correct John. Also, I don't see how it takes $250,000 to incorporate the Pope's mobile phone speech into the Amazing Facts repertoire, the mobile phone speech does not change prophecy, Batchelor could simply explain how it fits into prophecy and append it to his current videos. The Pope's speech does not require 24 videos in and of itself. Amazing Facts wants to produce more videos and the mobile phone speech happened at the right time for Amazing Facts to capitalize on it to raise money.
Catholics = good, conervative brothers and sisters in SDA faith = bad?
I do not see where the sin is?
I never looked at it that way. Yes , I guess the church and its televised programs do ask for way too much money a lot of the time. and I do understand that wealth is distributed unfairly so Churches do have a right to ask for money , but maybe they should be a lot clearer and more honest about what it will be used for, especially in this church, so it doesn't look like every other ministry trying to ask for a dime. In fact when I contacted "Amazing Facts" about financially helping a friend who was in need the response I got back was " we will pray for them".
Prayer is great and it does work, but doesn't God say if we have then we should help those in need? Whenever someone comes up to me and asks for money, if I have it I will give something, even when I haven't had much of anything. And I'm not just picking on Pastor Bachelor's ministry, I think he has helped a lot of people with his message and that he is sincere. Nevertheless, I felt a little disappointed by the response of "Amazing Facts", because it was an opportunity to help someone and possibly draw them to the gospel, though I know they can't help everyone in the world in need, but maybe some of the money for those elaborate television sets and and maybe some of the wealth spent on these national conferences and getaways could go toward helping the needy a little bit more.
Why doesn't our church develop transitional housing programs, shelters, free dental and medical care , like some other christian charities do? More food programs? Transportation programs? These are things that would help spread the gospel more and people would be more willing to give money to help others and spread the word.
You can also find the video on youtube. I saw it a few weeks ago and it was pretty chilling to watch regardless of commentary.