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does anyone know if there are any transcripts of veiths talks? i dont want to listen to any of the talks, and i dont particularly want to read what he has to say either, but i do need it for research. :)

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Amen. :0)

Any error that Veith has is error in details. Anyone other than a prophet has the same and given the hugh amount of material Veith shares is is amazing.

I wish I had time to make a mission out of showing how much of this so called error is not error at all. People say they can prove the same about EGW and the Bible. I will take time enough though to share that there are pictures taken of Saddam Hussein by the news that showed him without a beard and 6 weeks later they shared another picture of him where he had a beard that would take 18 -24 months to grow. Of course, those opposed to Veith and his work will not accept any evidence of anything because they wish to think all is well in the world.

   A friend from Michigan just phoned me and said that Walter Veith will be speaking this fall at "Michigan Men of Faith." This is a one day campmeeting for men on Sabbath at the Great Lakes Adventist Academy. This is sponsored by the Michigan Conference of Seventh day Adventists. If you can make the trip it will be worth your while. just to see a body of men together like this is encouraging and to hear them sing is awesome. Who knows, perhaps I will see some of your there.

Can women go, too?!

 That'd what my wife said. While some on the forum would not agree I told her it would not be right for her to go dressed as a man. She said then she might just show up.

Great news to hear

Critique of Walter Veith video about Islam being created by the Catholic church.;


The source of the idea that Islam was created by the Catholic Church seems to be from Alberto Rivera who was not a good source for history. And was almost certainly was a fraud. and this seems to be exactly where Walter Veith gets his information. Rivera claimed to have been given this information by the Jesuit General Cardinal Bea. And also found the information in the Vatican archives. His claims about Islam would only have been made by someone whom new very little about Islam and history.


> Mohamed’s first wife was Catholic nun. – From my research this is only based on Alberto Rivera who is not a good source for history. And was almost certainly a fraud as mentioned above. I can find no information that Khadija bint Khuwaylid was a nun or for that matter a Catholic. That all seems to come just from Rivera.


> Cresent and moon and star shows they took pagan symbol from Catholic Church. ---- False Muslims did not use symbols early on. Their flags were of simple solid colors like black and green. They did not believe in having special symbols like the cross for example. So early on they would use colors or written verses from the Quran printed on things. It was not until something like 600 years later that these symbols were adopted. No one knows for sure why they were adopted. But many believe it was the Ottoman's that did when they finally captured the Christian Byzantium capital of Constantinople as they used it for a symbol. But the Persians and others had used this symbol so no one is exactly sure. But it does seem to be the Ottoman Empire that started using the cresent moon and star.


>The same symbols are on Mosques and Catholic churches therefore they are the same religion. - Very common symbols like sons in decorations is not proof that religions are the same. So finding a Mosque with a Sun symbol some place on it and a Catholic church with a sun symbol some place on it does not mean it is the same religion. The sun symbol is one of the most basic decorations. And do not forget it was not even used for hundreds of years in Islam. This argument is like saying the pentagram and the Dallas Cowboys star looks the same so they have to both be run by the Devil.


>Nuns and Muslim women were the same clothes. So they are the same religion - Nuns and Muslim women do not wear exactly the same clothes. They are only the same in that they cover the entire body. You could also compare Muslim women’s swim suits to 19th century Protestant women’s swim suits. They are very much the same but it does not mean they are the same religion.


>Muslims and Catholics both have saints so have to be the same religion. - In Islam is it forbidden to have shrines and pray to saints etc. While this does happen some it is not a core teaching of the Quran or Mohamed. As a matter of fact the reformation type Muslims who only go by the Quran like the Wahabbis have destroyed shrines, etc.


>Priests are just men so they are the same. - All traditional Christian religions and the Jewish religion do not allow female priests or pastors. And the Bible does not have female priests or pastors.


>There is an eye symbol is Islam and also in Catholicism so they must be the same. - The truth is the eye symbol is the hamsa and predates Islam and is a regional cultural tradition. It has been adopted under different names in the same area by Muslims, Jews and Christians (including Protestants). This is another symbol that is not mentioned in the Bible or Quran. It seems to culturally be somewhat like the Native American dream catcher is becoming in the US. A general charm people from all religions use without thinking about it.


>Mosques and Catholic churches are built on pagan places of worship so all three are pagan. - It is common in all history for places of worship to be built on or in former places of worship. Pagan places became Christian places of worship and Christian places became Muslim places of worship and they then became Christian again and then back to Muslim. And Catholic places of worship became protestant places of worship.


>The Catholics created Islam to get rid of the Orthodox and other Christians in the Middle East. - There are many logical problems behind this. The main one being without Islam weakening the Christian Catholic church protestant ideas would probably never have survived.


>The area where Islam took over was all Christian. - The area was not all Christian it was a mixture of Jews, Christians (different varieties) and Pagan. Matter of fact many of the very first to fight against Islam were Pagans.


>Islam only took over countries that were not Catholic then went away to let the Catholics take over. - This is just crazy. If you read the history you can see the life and death struggles over the ages as Islam and the West battled each other for control. You can see the ebb and flow of power on each side. You can see the battle for towns, castles, cites kingdoms and oceans etc. You can read in depth about the personal desires and actions of key players at all levels on both sides over long stretches of time.


>Walter Veith to make his argument quotes from other fringe sources like Nesta Helen Webster. - Nesta was an early 20th century conspiracy theorist. She was very anti-Semitic and became involved in several right-wing groups including the British Fascists, the Anti-Socialist Union, The Link, and the British Union of Fascists. She was also the leading writer of the "The Patriot", an anti-Semitic paper, where she supported the persecution of the Jews in Nazi Germany. She later published Germany and England in which she suggested that Adolf Hitler had successfully halted the Jewish attempt to control the world. She was also an occultist who believed she may have been reincarnated.


>The structures of some of these societies and groups were somewhat the same. So they must all be part of the same huge conspiracy. - There are basic structures that have formed in many places in the world without contact that are somewhat the same. It does not mean they are all part of the same plot.



>The Ottoman Empire was created to get rid of the Orthodox Christians. - Just reading history you can see this is not true. They attacked both Orthadox and Catholic countries. They were stopped by force not by some hidden plan. And the Orthadox bore the brunt of the attacks because of geographic location not a plot.


>Osama Bin Ladin is a high ranking freemason. - There is no evidence for this at all.


>The Pope/Catholic church never complains about not having religious freedom in Muslim Lands. - This is clearly false. A quick search will show the Catholic Church complaining about Islam. You can start at the current pope and go back. Matter of fact the current pope gave a famous speech and used this quote. “"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". “. This quote was from Paleologus who spent most of his time in power fighting the Muslims.


>Uses Helena Blavatsky the Occultist as a source. - The problem with this is not that she was into the occult but that she was an amateur in it. Books like The Sources of Madame Blavatsky's Writings show that she plagiarized most of her work and it was full of errors. Quoting second rate occultists as fact does not help build a strong case.


>Spends a large amount of time quoting a personal site about Mary by someone named Allan Choveaux. - I can find no information that this is any more than a site by some random Catholic person. This is like someone trying to make a case about Adventists by quoting a page setup on the internet by some random Adventist.


>Takes the belief that all people must be united under one religion by the Muslims and applies it to the Catholics. - The Muslims do believe all men will be united under one religion at the end of time. But that religion is NOT the Catholic religion or any form of Christianity. They believe all the people of the world will be united under Islam.


>Says there is no difference between Catholic theologians and Muslims theologians. - This is simply not true at all. Finding theologian that is catholic that agrees on one point does not make his statement true. It is like saying because some early Adventist did not believe in the trinity Adventist theologians and Muslim theologians believe the same thing.





 by Patrick Lawrence 

 Probably Patrick Lawrence and his followers ought to be critiqued. They seem to have  conspiracy theories against an SDA pastor and professor. None of Lawrence s theories have been proven true. It is possible that he is against the presenting of the Three Angels Messages and therefore is working against a pastor of which none of his opponents  in the church, or elsewhere, have provided a shred of evidence that what he presents is against any of our fundamental beliefs.  

Isaiah 8:12 “Do not call conspiracy all that this people calls conspiracy, and do not fear what they fear, nor be in dread.

13 But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

I came across this passage in another thread that dealt with conspiracy against us. I was very glad to find it - thank you to the poster - and feel it might be appropriate in this thread as well.

Great quote, though I would like to point out that there is a big difference between being afraid and informed.

I have met Walter Veith personally and shaken his hand. I have also seen almost all of his dvds. He is genuine.


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